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Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Abishek_Muthian on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @12:32AM (#21635855)
I appreciate and welcome this move by RISC-V foundation. With semiconductor industry being used as a major soft power, countries which don't have such power betting on RISC-V[1], it's wise to move to a neutral country.

My only gripe being, there aren't many neutral countries which can stand up to powerful militarized nations.

Edit: The reason, I mentioned lack of military power of neutral countries is because of the existence of law such as 'Hague Invasion Act'[2] which allows U.S. to invade Hague to liberate its personnel tried at International Criminal Court for war crimes. Neutral countries need military power to protect its Neutrality!

[1]https://shakti.org.in

[2]https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-be...

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by kens on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @11:38AM (#21639869)
Has anyone else noticed HN comment threads becoming more, uh, unfocused lately? Here, an article on technology standards and avoiding trade restrictions on RISC-V has led to pages of comments on nuclear war with Switzerland.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by punnerud on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @12:11PM (#21640234)
I feel that is the case every November, December before Christmas and June. Times where a lot of bigger (work) projects are due and people are tired.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by mytailorisrich on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @03:28AM (#21636495)
No-one is going to invade Switzerland.

A country like the US can invade any country they want. International law is irrelevant. But they can pressure a country like Switzerland without needing to resort to military action, which would be crazy anyway in the case of Switzerland.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by antipropaganda on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:22AM (#21636703)
US can't just invade any country. US would find it very difficult to invade a country with second strike nuclear capability. Even if nuclear war is out of the question, US would find it very difficult to invade, say China: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/china-u...
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by linuxftw on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:23AM (#21638478)
The US doesn't normally invade. It's far more efficient to destabilize and prop up the preferred military junta.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by jacobush on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @11:06AM (#21639458)
Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by linuxftw on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @02:15PM (#21641590)
But is that the norm? Cuba, Panama, Syria, Egypt, Iraq v Iran, Ukraine, Libya, Yemen, Somalia. The US takes sides all over the planet; Sometimes the US backs a 'state' and sometimes the US backs 'rebels.'
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by jacobush on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @09:54AM (#21648292)
I meant, it's not exactly unprecedented for them to invade. I know they do a lot of the other stuff too.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by juskrey on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @05:35AM (#21637082)
US have already pressured Swiss to remove bank secrecy, which is kinda a big deal.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by markvdb on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:07AM (#21637554)
...to remove the Swiss bank secrecy, and keep the US bank secrecy...
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by 6510 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:17AM (#21637300)
The world applauded that effort.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by tobltobs on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:36AM (#21637710)
Especially Delaware and all the other US tax heavens.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by logfromblammo on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @10:54AM (#21639337)
Delaware has invested heavily into its courts, to be attractive as a corporate domicile, on features other than lowest taxes paid to Delaware itself. You set up in Delaware to avoid paying taxes everywhere else. That's why non-havens hate tax havens; the havens are stealing milk from their herds.

Delaware, Nevada, New Mexico, et al. make it easy to set up shell companies. Multiple layers of corporate veils make it easier to evade taxation, if the business is so inclined. But it's also easier to legally avoid taxation, which is the goal of the next-generation tax haven.

The deal is that you pay some taxes to Delaware, as the unavoidable ones, and then use its business-friendly jurisdiction to set up a network of sub-companies that can more easily slide through all the loopholes in all the rest of the world's tax laws. So the Delaware company owns the Irish company, and the Dutch company, and the Bermuda company, and the Singapore company, and the Cyprus company, and it can optimize the on-paper accounting so the money generates the least tax possible whenever it moves in the direction of the owners. If someone goes after a mook company, it can be cut loose and replaced, but if someone goes after the mastermind company, they have to do it in Delaware's courts.

The tax haven version 1.0 relied on banking secrecy to hide financial information from taxation authorities, so they wouldn't know what to tax. Tax haven version 2.0 is about playing those taxation authorities against each other, so that all their weaknesses (relative to the other authorities) are attacked at once, and laws are only broken or ignored outside of the jurisdictions in which they are enforceable. The information is not kept secret, but it is managed so that the only entity that can see the whole picture has no particular reason to pry too deeply or to leak it to anyone else.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by wahern on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @01:56PM (#21641412)
Delaware isn't business friendly; it's shareholder friendly, which is why investors prefer Delaware incorporation. Of more concern to shareholders than the prospect of big gains is the risk of waste and embezzlement, and preventing that requires transparency and accountability (both literally and figuratively) much greater than required by your typical fraud promoting tax haven.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by logfromblammo on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @03:11PM (#21642168)
Also, the US did not adopt the Common Reporting Standard from the OECD in the wake of the Panama Papers leak. So it does not report banking activity happening inside to the US to other countries.

The Paradise Papers may spur additional legislative action, pending the results of the 2020 elections.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by stjohnswarts on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:51AM (#21637467)
They've actually bust a lot of African dictators and such it was more or less a success. At least in the short term. Crooks will always come up with a way to launder cash though
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by misja on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:08AM (#21637560)
And now there is BitCoin.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by outside1234 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:33AM (#21638552)
You mean they have pressured the Swiss to stop laundering and storing drug and Nazi money, which is totally a big deal.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by swiley on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:49AM (#21638672)
People might be less upset if US banks weren’t doing it on a large scale.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Abishek_Muthian on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @03:34AM (#21636522)
True, especially if U.S. has 'Hague Invasion Act' against a NATO member!
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by tanilama on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:45AM (#21637762)
US probably couldn't invade Russia or China, not on its own. I don't think they have the sheer number of men even.

Those countries are huge.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by logfromblammo on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @11:18AM (#21639597)
Why would anyone ever want to invade Russia? If you want to attack Russia, invade Cyprus and seize the financial records.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by stjohnswarts on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:38AM (#21637409)
I don't think anyone is going to invade Switzerland for a RISC cpu design
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Abishek_Muthian on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:59AM (#21638775)
None needs to, it's opensource. They're moving to protect its freedom.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by krowfromthewall on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:20AM (#21646183)
I think the term used for Hardware is Open Access, not Open Source
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Abishek_Muthian on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @09:33PM (#21654186)
Not necessarily.

RISC-V Foundation just calls it 'open ISA' and Wikipedia states as 'RISC-V is an open-source hardware instruction set architecture'.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by wang_li on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @01:02PM (#21640819)
Since it’s open source they don’t need to move the foundation to protect the design. They’re moving to protect their ability to collect dues from companies tightly controlled by governments that commit human rights abuses on a massive scale.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by pgeorgi on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @02:58AM (#21636381)
In this case Switzerland seems to be a pretty good choice: compulsory military service, difficult terrain, nuclear power plants (and with them the infrastructure to build the bomb)
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by microtherion on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:00AM (#21638286)
Yeah, that's what we LIKE the others to think.

Realistically, our armed forces are at a strength of about 140K soldiers right now (pretty sure that's not a state secret).

The parts of the terrain that are actually inhabited are not particularly forbidding (let them build their RISC processors in a hut nestled beside an 8500ft mountain pass. Don't forget to bring popcorn as you watch them).

And nuclear power plants make a big fat bombing target for opponents too lazy to make their own dirty bombs. Conveniently placed smack in the middle of the inhabitable part of Switzerland, too.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by beatgammit on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:44AM (#21638629)
According to Wikipedia [1], you have ~160k active military with ~1.5M that could be conscripted. That's not huge, but it's enough to give an enemy a bad time, especially with the Swiss terrain and strategic defenses. And I'm sure they'd have a bunch of other countries willing to back them up, depending on the belligerent.

I highly doubt it'll come to that. It would be much easier to just infiltrate the fab and replace stock going to an important destination.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Armed_Forces

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by microtherion on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @10:12AM (#21638898)
160k may have been accurate 2 years ago, but the number is shrinking continuously: https://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2019/militaer/bestand.sv...

> it's enough to give an enemy a bad time

That depends a lot on the objective, I think. The defenses against an enemy controlling the transalpine transportation axes are fairly strong. But I think this scenario gets talked up a lot for exactly that reason.

The defenses against an enemy controlling 80% of the population and 90% of the economy are much weaker. Then again, it might only take a few sysadmins armed with SQL queries to deal significant economic damage against any attacker.

> It would be much easier to just infiltrate the fab and replace stock going to an important destination.

True. And if I've understood the article correctly, no fabs would be changing location. RISC-V is an open source design, so the fabs in question would probably be located in the "enemy" countries anyway.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by K0SM0S on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @11:36AM (#21639825)
> ~1.5M that could be conscripted. That's not huge, but it's enough to give an enemy a bad time, especially with the Swiss terrain and strategic defenses.

Switzerland is filthy rich, too. Private fortunes thought to rival or surpass the biggest public billionaires, money pipes throughout the world beyond measure — the result of centuries of diligently building a discrete but very real financial empire... all of that has to count for something in the age of PMC's and acts of surgical retaliation projecting force accross the globe.

Taking on a too-rich enemy in modern times is choosing an all-out, extremely mobile, stupidly costly, and above all likely painful war. You'll lose a lot at the hand of the best weapons and talents money can buy.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @11:56AM (#21640078)
Rich doesn't mean anything if the currency is worthless. Switzerland has value in a consistent, trustable system and educated population. But without a larger military standing behind it, such as other European countries or the US, it's not going to be able to defend against a larger aggressor.

That's why an extremely indebted USA is still very valuable. Because they can park a few aircraft carriers off the coast of whomever they desire (although this may be changing, namely due to China).

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by pgeorgi on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:52AM (#21645847)
Off the coast of Switzerland? O_o
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Twixes on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:50AM (#21638692)
Pretty sure you'd need at least MOAB to damage a nuclear unit so that it'd become a level 6+ accident. These things are designed to withstand a jet crash.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by microtherion on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:54AM (#21638731)
Several of them are nearly 50 years old, so I'm not entirely sure to what safety standard they were constructed.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @03:51PM (#21696569)
Nuclear powerplant is a strength, not a weakness. Unless you are getting attacked by an army made up entirely of suicide bombers, they will avoid the reactors like the plague. No-one needs another Chernobyl.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Abishek_Muthian on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @03:32AM (#21636515)
Conscription is not as effective as a regular volunteer force. Atomic weapons or other WMD goes against the ethos of neutral countries which traditionally are pro-Human Rights.

But I understand where you are coming at, perhaps it is because major military nations poses A-Bombs. I guess, if they are democratic countries we have no choice but to hope that their citizens can prevent it from getting used; My real worry is the non-democratic/pseudo democratic countries with A-Bombs.

Edit : N-Bomb->A-Bomb.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by pgeorgi on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:16AM (#21636674)
> Conscription is not as effective as a regular volunteer force.

Switzerland's terrain wouldn't see regular war but guerilla warfare (including mined bridges and everything). Having trained marksmen in almost every household helps a lot in such a situation.

> Atomic weapons or other WMD goes against the ethos of neutral countries which traditionally are pro-Human Rights.

I think Switzerland would adopt a "whatever it takes" approach when attacked. At least that's what they credibly project, and so it's unlikely that they'll end up having to play it out.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by SiempreViernes on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:41AM (#21636808)
The the short form of nuclear weapons is conventionally a-bomb.

A n-bomb is more likely to refer to use of a slavery related term, and is very frequently used in some circles which include the current US president. So demonstrably democracy does not prevent the use of n-bombs, which happens to be true historically for a-bombs as well (which were used by a democracy essentially because the war wasn't over by the time they've built the thing).

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Abishek_Muthian on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:57AM (#21636904)
Thanks edited.

>which were used by a democracy essentially because the war wasn't over by the time they've built the thing).

But the same U.S. President Harry S. Truman relieved General of the Army Douglas MacArthur when he wanted to drop A-Bomb on China during the Korean War.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by SiempreViernes on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @11:33AM (#21639793)
True, he did learn from that mistake, though it is still fair to criticise him for committing it in the first place and to point out that the democratic principles the USA espoused at the time did not save Nagasaki.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by leppr on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:18AM (#21636688)
> I guess, if they are democratic countries we have no choice but to hope that their citizens can prevent it from getting used;

There exist no country in the world where citizens have any say on nuclear weapon use. "Pseudo democracy" is the norm.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Abishek_Muthian on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:28AM (#21636745)
I didn't mean, they have a say in pushing the button. But, they have a say in electing someone who maintains restraint and not a warmonger.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Tepix on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @03:59AM (#21636606)
"Hague invasion act" =:-O

The US truly are the bully in the room.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by dang on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @12:04AM (#21645391)
Please keep nationalistic flamewar off HN and please don't post flamebait, period. The subthread this led to is exactly what we don't need here: tedious repetition of the same-old for the nth time, getting nastier as it goes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by pjc50 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:19AM (#21636691)
The US has a strong commitment to pardoning its war criminals and human rights violators. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-warcrimes-pardon...

This, incidentally, is why it's hard to take seriously the idea that US positioning against China is aimed at genuinely improving human rights and not just using them as rhetorical cover.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by eeZah7Ux on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @05:52AM (#21637162)
...while at the same time US law seem to magically apply everywhere in the world. Extradition to the US is very common. Not to mention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by cesarb on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:14AM (#21637961)
> while at the same time US law seem to magically apply everywhere in the world.

Like how non-USA financial institutions have to care about whether their clients could be considered USA citizens, just because USA law says so.

Or like USA export control laws apply to devices which were not manufactured in the USA, just because the device includes an USA-manufactured screw or something like that.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by onepointsixC on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:03AM (#21638314)
Pardoning was the wrong move, but are you honestly putting that upon the same level as over a million placed in concentration camps? The US is not perfect, but what, because of that they can't have legitimate points on human rights on what the CCP is doing?
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by pjc50 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:10AM (#21638370)
Not that the point isn't legitimate, but it carries less weight because China can just say "we're following the US example".

https://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-chinese-papers-on-mus... : "Xi pushed the party to use the "organs of dictatorship" to move millions of the minority group, Uighur Muslims, into the camps in western China and cited the United States' war on terror following 9/11 for an example of how to limit civil liberties. "

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by onepointsixC on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:21AM (#21638458)
> it carries less weight because China can just say "we're following the US example".

I agree that post 9/11 US foreign policy making has been disastrous and utterly corrosive to America's ability to hold the moral high ground. But surely we can differentiate here. Putting millions of Uhyger men into camps and forcing their wives to share beds with Han men is on a whole another level[1].

[1]: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/muslim-china-u...

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by cyphar on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @05:44AM (#21646820)
The US's disastrous and inhumane foreign policy started long before 2001 (though 9/11 did make it worse). The Vietnam War (where the US routinely engaged in chemical warfare -- a war crime) immediately springs to mind but there are many other examples.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by jki275 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:59AM (#21638270)
One might note the act you reference in your link has no real precedent in US history and is an anomaly by someone who has no concept of how the military works and issues orders to the military via twitter.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by riversflow on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:51AM (#21638221)
>the idea that US positioning against China is aimed at genuinely improving human rights and not just using them as rhetorical cover.

You must be saying this in jest, or you have been brainwashed. Without even touching on the interment camps, which are definitely worse than the US prison system; here is demonstrable evidence that the US cares more about global human rights than the Chinese.[1]

[1]https://www.hrw.org/report/2011/11/04/youll-be-fired-if-you-...

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by billfruit on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:10AM (#21638373)
How many people get killed at the hands of the police in encounters in the US, versus the same in China. My guess is that at least on a per capita basis, the figure would be more in the US.

Also I do not subscribe to the view that Democracy is somehow morally superior to other forms of government. Anyone who has read Plutarch, can understand that figures like Pericles can manipulate the minds of the masses and rule as an authoritarian under the guise of being a democrat. The same playbook is being used for thousands of years with the same effect. See Erdogan in Turkey, I don't see him ever outsted from power democratically, aleast not in a long time.

Same reason products with the better advertisment sells better than the better product.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by pjc50 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:42AM (#21638618)
That link doesn't actually mention the US at all? It points to a single example involving Zambia and China, which is definitely bad. There are an awfully long list of those around the world.

That's what I mean - if you go looking for incidents where the Chinese are involved and build up a prosecution argument against them, that's a very different approach to trying to systematically and without favour deal with all human rights abuses of all scale by all parties. Which is a huge job.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by riversflow on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:57AM (#21638747)
I'm saying that China consistently does a worse job of handling human rights than the United States. The post WWII global economic order has been mostly on the US; recently China has started to push out into Africa, plundering their fishing stocks and practicing neo-colonialism. I'm looking for places where China is pushing into an existing economic order and noticing how humans rights standards generally go backwards.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by DiogenesKynikos on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:19PM (#21642819)
> recently China has started to push out into Africa, plundering their fishing stocks and practicing neo-colonialism

Do you have any idea about the history of the United States in Africa? The overthrow and murder of the first elected President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the installation of an American-friendly dictator. Support for the coup that overthrew the first elected President of Ghana and replaced him with a military government. Opposition to Angolan independence from the Portuguese empire. Support for the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

And you're comparing this to what? Chinese companies overfishing in African coastal waters? You're really lacking a sense of perspective here.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by DiogenesKynikos on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:57AM (#21638257)
The United States invaded Iraq and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis on a thin pretext. It toppled the government of Libya, leading to years of turmoil and the return of literal slavery. It supported Sunni extremists in Syria that helped tear that country apart. It ran a global kidnapping and torture operation for years. It conducts drone assassinations around the world. When I hear Americans talking about the US standing for human rights around the world, I wonder where they've been living these past few decades.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by rayiner on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:12AM (#21638387)
The intervention in Libya was due to a security council resolution proposed by the UK and France. It was run as a joint NATO effort.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by jsjohnst on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:49AM (#21638679)
> It was run as a joint NATO effort.

All that says is that other “democratic” “human rights advocating” countries are also to blame.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by DiogenesKynikos on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @12:37PM (#21640543)
I'm not saying that France out the UK have clean hands either, but there was critical US involvement. NATO went far beyond the UN mandate to protect civilians, however, becoming the de facto rebel air force.

NATO tried several times to assassinate Gaddafi, killing his family members instead. For example, one airstrike in Tripoli killed a son and three grandchildren of his.[1] Of course, they did eventually bomb his caravan, leaving him to be brutally murdered on the side of the road. None of this was authorized by the UN. Western special forces were also not authorized to operate in Libya, but they did anyways.

Anyways, years after this wonderful exercise in protecting civilians, the country is still in a state of civil war, torn between different warlords. People forget that as bad as Gaddafi was, Libya used to have the highest living standard in Africa. Now, it's a nightmare.

1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya/libyas-gaddafi-surv...

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by riversflow on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:47AM (#21638656)
Look, I'm didn't say that the US is a beacon of morality, what I'm saying is that China is significantly less moral than the US, and I gave a direct apples to apples example. Pointing out that the US participated in the Iraq war is not really on topic at all, because the US is the sole flag-bearer of free trade on the high seas in our global economic system--no one else has the navy to do it and nobody else has to maintain that machine. The US hasn't kidnapped and tortured any consulate employees recently, which China just did.

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/11/21/uk-govt-summons-china-...

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by DiogenesKynikos on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @12:46PM (#21640649)
Saying the US "participated in the Iraq war" is putting it rather euphemistically. The US government lied and engineered the Iraq War, which was an illegal war of aggression. It led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. ISIS probably would never have come into existence without the Iraq war.

> The US hasn't kidnapped and tortured any consulate employees recently, which China just did.

Perhaps not (though it does have a recent history of kidnapping and torturing people on a global scale), but the US is busy blasting away pine nut farmers in Afghanistan.[1]

1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones...

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by rayiner on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:13AM (#21637270)
How is that bullying? The US doesn’t submit to the jurisdiction of the ICC, which is voluntary. (India isn’t a member either.) Clinton never submitted it to the Senate for ratification. Prosecution of an American by the ICC would therefore be an act of aggression and military response would be warranted.

The US, in general, is defensive of its sovereignty. We have our own institutions and we are very protective of them. For example, we have a right to a jury trial by one’s peers n a criminal case. The ICC has no juries, and panelists are generally foreigners to the defendant. Criminal convictions in US federal courts (and nearly all states) require a unanimous verdict. The ICC requires a simple majority. The ICC allows trials in abstentia, regularly relies on hearsay evidence, etc. Our highest court is the United States Supreme Court. But the Supreme Court cannot hear appeals from the ICC and cannot issue judgments binding on the ICC. Our practices in these areas, such as jury trials, are the part of an unbroken line of law and tradition dating back to the Magna Carta in 1215. Those practices can be refined and improved, but that’s completely orthogonal to submitting to the jurisdiction of supra-national organizations like the ICC. Our institutions can always be improved. But that doesn’t mean we have to submit to someone else’s institutions.

In my view, the real question is why others are so willing to give up their sovereignty and right to self determination? Why submit to the will of some foreign court that’s totally outside the framework of your own country’s laws, constitution, and institutions?

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by pavlov on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:22AM (#21637329)
> "...the real question is why others are so willing to give up their sovereignty and right to self determination?"

It's an easy question to ask when you're the guy at the top of the pile with the biggest guns and the ability to kill or capture your perceived enemies anywhere in the world.

For everyone else, global institutions based on universal human rights are a welcome safeguard against the abuses of 20th century style sovereignty.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by mcv on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:41AM (#21637427)
Just look at how many foreigners the US has abducted to be locked up or tortured, often even without a fair trial. At least the ICC guarantees a fair trial.

The US is making it very explicit that they are above rules. They have the right to commit war crimes, while holding other countries accountable for their war crimes, and even for things that aren't even crimes at all. The US is a bully, and is very explicit about it.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by stjohnswarts on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:40AM (#21637416)
Name a large country that would really obey an ICC dictate that it didn't like (Namely China, India, USA, Russia, Great Britain, France, Germany, etc)
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by close04 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:32AM (#21637688)
I'm not sure Germany and France should be on that list. Not because they wouldn't try to protect their own even from the suspicion of being war criminals but because they would never got to such lengths as to threaten war to do it.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by socialdemocrat on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:57AM (#21638258)
Basically you are arguing for the kind of oppressive world China and Russia wants. One where a state has absolute sovereignty for abuse and oppress.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by DrScientist on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:28AM (#21637363)
> In my view, the real question is why others are so willing to give up their sovereignty and right to self determination?

You are an anarchist then? Otherwise as an sovereign individual, how can you justify being part of nation with laws over you?

It's not so much giving up sovereignty as pooling it. ie you trade your right to do so as you wish, for a guarantee that others can't just do as they wish on agreed areas - like rape, murder, stealing etc.

Same argument applies to countries - they submit to the ICC, but are also party to shaping it - it's an agreement between countries about what is 'beyond the pale'.

The sad fact is, however the US see's it's self, the rest of the world is increasingly seeing the US as the largest threat to world peace. https://fullfact.org/news/america-world-peace/

In my view, the US need to have a long hard look at themselves and re-discover their moral mojo.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Abishek_Muthian on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:24AM (#21637643)
>Why submit to the will of some foreign court that’s totally outside the framework of your own country’s laws, constitution, and institutions?

They why be subject to U.N. and it's ICJ? Submitting only to institutions in which we have extraordinary influence or can veto out of unfavourable circumstances is not 'protection of sovereignty'; it's hypocrisy and disregard to delivering justice.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by rayiner on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:39AM (#21637730)
The UN is largely voluntary and has little power to issue anything binding. The US is a member of the ICJ but has not consented for compulsory jurisdiction. It only submits to ICJ jurisdiction on a treaty-by-treaty or consent basis.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by theobeers on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:08AM (#21637565)
People are challenging you on the point about sovereignty, but you’re quite right to criticize the ridiculous processes of the ICC. What defense is there for that? Is it supposed to be acceptable because it’s a ridiculousness that belongs to all nations?
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Aaargh20318 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:38AM (#21637410)
> In my view, the real question is why others are so willing to give up their sovereignty and right to self determination?

What would effectively be the difference for you as an individual. You don't have sovereignty, you don't have self determination, the huge country you live in does. You have zero influence over your country's laws, constitution and institutions.

Why do you prefer to be ruled over by the US, which is corrupt to the bone and ruled by whoever pays the largest 'campaign contributions' (a.k.a. bribes). vs. something like the ICC ?

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by pjc50 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:10AM (#21637925)
> In my view, the real question is why others are so willing to give up their sovereignty and right to self determination?

Because in doing so in the form of an agreement, others can be made to give up their freedom to do bad things while you also give up the freedom to do those bad things? Like the normal social contract, but explicit and on a larger scale.

This dates even to the 1899 Hague Convention, which the US was very keen on following earlier work by Abraham Lincoln. The way to get the enemy to treat your prisoners of war humanely is to agree to treat theirs humanely, and this held fairly well even in the horrors of WW2.

The post-Holocaust international order is devoted to the idea that there is always a risk of rogue states deciding to end the freedoms of their citizens or engage in mass murder and other crimes against humanity. There are also risks of states turning on one another and escalating economic disputes to actual wars. In order to guard against these, supranational institutions were built. Not just the United Nations and the ICC, but the whole Bretton Woods system, the WTO, the NATO mutual defence organisation, the ECHR, and the EU and its antecedants.

How can the US ask China to end its human rights abuses, and expect to be taken seriously, when the US refuses internal or external accountability for its own human rights abuses and war criminals? The official position of the United States, having determined that Edward Gallagher was deliberately murdering civilians and prisoners of war, is that he should be pardoned and have his position reinstated? That's fine and no reason for imposing sanctions on the United States?

Yes, this is a tu quoque argument, but at the level of international propaganda it works.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by socialdemocrat on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:54AM (#21638241)
Human rights are universal as established by the Nuremberg trials. If they were not then Nazis could not have been prosecuted for crimes against humanity. Nazi Germany never recognized the authority of these trials.

The point is that human rights are above national laws. If an American citizen commit serious human right abuses abroad he/she should naturally be put on trial.

In particular American involved in kidnapping and torturing foreigners to obtain information ought to be put on a human rights trial. I am thinking in particular about all the human rights violations during the Bush/Cheney years.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by baybal2 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:52AM (#21637807)
> The US doesn’t submit to the jurisdiction of the ICC, which is voluntary.

ICC members follow universal jurisdiction when it comes to war crime.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by monocasa on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:54AM (#21638239)
The US has said it will go as far as a military invasion of the Hague if they try to enforce war crimes against the US.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by rayiner on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:18AM (#21638434)
Incorrect: https://www.icc-cpi.int/about/how-the-court-works

“The Court may exercise jurisdiction in a situation where genocide, crimes against humanity or war crimes were committed on or after 1 July 2002 and:

the crimes were committed by a State Party national, or in the territory of a State Party, or in a State that has accepted the jurisdiction of the Court; or the crimes were referred to the ICC Prosecutor by the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) pursuant to a resolution adopted under chapter VII of the UN charter.”

The only way the ICC can exercise jurisdiction over a non-member is through referral from the UN Security Council.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Abishek_Muthian on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:10AM (#21636648)
Just to clarify, it is officially called 'American Service-Members' Protection Act' which was supposedly passed as there was a chance George W. Bush could be arrested & tried at ICC for war crimes; media & human rights organizations call it 'Hague invasion act' for what it is.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by shifto on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:17AM (#21637304)
Imagine the US invading The Hague to rescue Bush Jr. How would this even go? Will this be a D-day like landing on Dutch beaches?

Probably some boring demands and Netherlands will comply because big bad USA and such.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by 6510 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:14AM (#21637277)
he was already tried in absentia. It was easy, there are many TV interviews where W does a full confession by saying torture produces good information.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by Abishek_Muthian on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:38AM (#21637724)
>he was already tried in absentia

I think that was in 'Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission', it's not a U.N. recognised body.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by fauigerzigerk on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:48AM (#21636851)
Interestingly, the US would also have an obligation to defend The Hague against any invasion if the Netherlands were to invoke Article Five of the NATO treaty.
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by pulse7 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:10AM (#21637257)
This can be invoked only if non-NATO member attacks...
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by jariel on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @06:17AM (#21637303)
"The US truly are the bully in the room."

The world is a very fragile, dynamic balance of power and the US is the only thing holding it together.

Despite many grievances, it's sad to see people fail to grasp this.

Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by cyphar on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:03AM (#21637873)
Given that the US funds more than 70% of all dictatorships, has funded and organised numerous coups against democratically-elected leaderships (to install US-friendly ones) and is currently waging several illegal wars in the middle east -- I don't see how you could argue that the US is holding anything together. Even at a cursory glance, they seem to be instigating most of the problems.
[dead]
Re:RISC-V Foundation moving to Switzerland over trade curb f... by jariel on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @02:16PM (#21641601)
This is wrong to the point that it's sometimes worrisome, the amount of arbitrary 'anti police' and 'anti Americanism' etc. here on HN and in other places that clouds otherwise intelligent judgement.

I often wonder about the roots of this; of course 'the police' or 'America' have many faults, it's easy to point them out, but I'm always perplexed by those that can't see the bigger picture.

As though it needs to be articulated - the US doesn't really gain a lot from it's military expenditures, or '80 bases' around the world. But the world would be in chaos without them.

To start, 'high seas' (including the Suez Canal, the Gulf, and the Panama Canal) are currently open to anyone only due to US power. Particularly those 'strategic spots' - it is America that makes sure that anyone can use them. China, Russia, Iran - anyone. They're open, and free. The same cannot be said if antagonising powers like China, or local fiefdoms like a Panamanian populist to take over.

The entire world takes the concept of 'open, navigable waters' for granted, but this would not be the case were there not a force to ensure that this happened.

In Europe, the US is the only power preventing Russian Imperial expansion. Putin has already tried to 'pull a Crimea' in the Baltic states, it was only coordination by American-led NATO that enabled their defence. Even to this day, Europeans are very poorly coordinated on the issue. Ukraine would be fully under Putin's control, and Russia would be creeping into Poland. Georgia would have been invaded when the Russians occupied South Ossetia.

In Asia, we can see most recently the attempt by China to take exclusive control of vast ocean territories off the coast of Philipines, Vietnam etc. - only America has the power to ensure that this area will generally stay open.

S. Korea would not be a state without American power, it's possible that Japan would not, and certainly not Taiwan.

More contentiously, the US holds some authoritarian powers together, but even then it's for the greater good. Most obviously Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, but even Qatar, Bahrain, UAE fall in this camp. These aren't the nicest states, but they are generally 'good players' on the international scene, they mostly help fight against terrorism, and they sell their Oil on the international markets and market prices. Without US support none of those countries would exist as such. We saw what Saddam did in Kuwait, and there's no reason to believe he would have stopped there. In particular, the Iranians have been trying to very seriously destabilise those countries for some time by providing weapons, political cover, training, and support.

And that's just scratching the surface; without the US the high seas would not be open and navigable, the Suez/Panama/Gulf would be controlled by petty fiefs or hostile powers, large parts of Eastern Europe would be back in the Russian Empire and Putin would have that much more ability to antagonise, at very least Korea and Taiwan would not exist, and there'd likely be more hostility over there, and the Middle East would be unrecognisable, the hostilities would be far worse than they are today. And again - those are just the obvious areas - but if those dominos were to fall, so many others would. In short, a 'world without America' would be a dark and hostile place, there is no other leadership on the world stage that has the power to ensure the stability we have right now. Europe could, but they're not willing.

Americans gain a little bit in terms of prestige, access to some foreign markets, and their own security, but frankly it's just not enough to justify in hard terms.

Without the incredible goodwill of Americans the 'balance of internal political power' of their foreign policy would be such that they would have left the Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese, Lithuanians, Polish etc. in the wind, long ago.

In the 1990s it was looking like the American led world order would melt into democracy, but it's not going to be that way at least for the time being.

FYI I'm not American.