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Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by kristianc on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:09PM (#21632231)
Japan is a pretty good cautionary tale for Britain (and to a lesser extent to the US) on how shutting yourself off from immigration tends to go.

Japan was expected to become the next global superpower in the 1980s, and instead has seen closing in on three lost decades.

It’s only now trying to catch up, politically, culturally and economically.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by Mikeb85 on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:28PM (#21632431)
How is Japan a cautionary tale? They're one of the most (the most?) developed countries on earth, enjoy one of the highest standards of living and economically punch well above their weight (based on population and access to resources).

I don't see where the problem is... The vast majority of countries, even many western countries only wish they had Japan's 'problems'.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by rm_-rf_slash on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:49PM (#21632654)
Their demographics are horrific. More diapers are sold to adults than babies. People are worked to the bone to support the needs of a massive elderly population.

Japan does a lot of things exceedingly well but demographics are one of those forces of history that are dammed near impossible to mitigate or circumvent without enormous cost, like trying to stop a train with your fist.

EDIT: Just to be clear, my point is about demographics, not immigration. We have yet to see if productivity advancements such as robotics can fill the void, but either way, Japan has a significant struggle ahead of itself.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by toasterlovin on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:53PM (#21632699)
The Japanese are just the first country to tackle the demographic transition without gambling their entire culture and country on mass immigration. We don't know yet whether it's a bad bet. In favor of their approach: 1) the demographic transition will pass (since fertility is heritable), 2) increasing automation will probably reduce the demand for labor, 3) meanwhile life is still good for Japanese people.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by opportune on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:04PM (#21632806)
"1) the demographic transition will pass (since fertility is heritable)"

Citation needed. Sure fertility is well correlated with educational attainment which is likely somewhat "heritable" by proxy (social class, intelligence, lack of disabilities) but that doesn't mean the heritable effect will be large enough in aggregate.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by toasterlovin on Monday November 25, 2019 @07:33PM (#21634487)
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by theflyinghorse on Monday November 25, 2019 @05:10PM (#21633359)
I think Japanese approach is a good one specifically because of (2). Automation is something that is happening now as we speak and will only continue to accelerate. In fact the entirety of my career has been about reducing human labour or automating it entirely (within fintech, service industry, and IoT).
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by mrb on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:31PM (#21633026)
The demographics of Japan, specifically an aging population and declining birth rate, is unfortunately where ALL modern countries are headed. Anyone who studies demographics knows this (in my part of the world we learn this in middle school). This is the natural result of healthcare improvements and first world parents who choose for various social reasons to have fewer and fewer kids.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by remarkEon on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:55PM (#21632724)
This is begging the question a bit though, isn’t it? Low total fertility in Japan does not necessarily mean “make up the difference with immigrants”. There are other policy options to address that issue.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by claudeganon on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:59PM (#21632761)
Subtract their position as the forward operating base for the US military in Asia and try telling this story again.

While Japanese economic progress postwar was astonishing, it was entirely premised on them having favored status in the region. Few people know, for example, that the US forced Korea to purchase massive amounts of goods from Japan to rebuild its economy, essentially reinstating their former colonial relationship and stoking tensions that culminated in the Korean War.

Japan is a cautionary take because it was entirely too dependent on using its favored status in American geopolitics to throw its weight around Asia-Pacific, as opposed to building meaningful, trade and immigration agreements with other countries in the regions. Now that US dominance is in retreat and the Chinese ascendant, they’re in a poor overall economic position to counter them.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by raxxorrax on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:28PM (#21632998)
Products from Japan are sold in many countries and usually have a good reputation. The country has many trade relations and foreign investments all over the planet. They are solidly in the top 5 of trading countries.

Certainly the geo-strategic position was favorable, but I think this is quite the exaggeration.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by beat on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:41PM (#21633121)
I think it's rather an oversimplification to say that five years of reconstruction of a totally shattered Japan caused the Korean War. Or to take any lessons from the immediate postwar period and use them to explain the state of Japan 75 years later.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by asdff on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @12:22AM (#21635819)
At least as far as development goes, the United States supercharged the postwar economy in Japan which directly lead to where it is today. If, say Indiana got the same investment, it too would look like Japan today with high speed maglev rail criss crossing like a fisherman's net and be a dominant position in high tech manufacturing.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by beat on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @11:22AM (#21639664)
And if we bombed Indiana to the brink of collapse and burned Indianapolis to the ground and nuked Terre Haute, maybe we'd do that.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by NonEUCitizen on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:57AM (#21637844)
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by rb808 on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:20PM (#21632340)
Japan has virtually identical GDP/capita to the UK, the numbers are a little out of date as GBP has fallen in last few years. Maybe UK could try to emulate Japan to try to catch up with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by namirez on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:30PM (#21632449)
Your claim is correct only between 1985 and 1995. Since 1995, Japan's economy has stagnated but UK's has grown significantly.

source: https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by _0ffh on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:46PM (#21632617)
Looking at these numbers, UK has also been stagnating since ca 2005. Comparing between 1980 and 2015, both had about the same growth in GDP per capita, and about the same absolute numbers. Only Japan did the bulk of it's growing earlier in that time span, and the UK later.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by mrb on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:20PM (#21632935)
Looking at your chart, rb808's claim is correct even as of the latest numbers. UK at $39720 and Japan at $38428 is "virtually identical".
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by mc32 on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:15PM (#21632297)
The global superpower fears were wild exaggerations. They didn’t have the pop (workers and also consumers) to support those claims.

Of course contributing to those fears was vast underinvestment in modernization by US firms which were still relying on very old and inefficient technologies, so of course to some stateside companies (and “pundits”) they looked like worldbeaters.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by ganeshkrishnan on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:22PM (#21632367)
They do have the population. Just the prefecture of Tokyo is more populated than the whole continent of Australia (32 million vs 23 million)
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by Xixi on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:17PM (#21632916)
Japanese economy is about 3.5 times bigger than that of Australia. I'm not sure what your point is.

Economical measures are hard to interpret, but they can give an indication: Japan GDP/capita is standing at 48,920 USD, and Australia at 56,919 USD. Germany is at 47,502 USD, France at 43,664 and UK at 42,986 USD. Japan is there, slightly ahead of Europe. Australia is somewhat ahead, but benefits from way more natural resources (minerals and oil). You can only grow fast so far: once your entire country is middle-class growth will be slower.

By comparison, Korea is at 26,762 USD, and China at 7,755 USD. These two countries have way more potential for growth, but also because they are way less developed for large groups of people. I forgot the exact salary difference for the same job between a chaebol and a small company in Korea, but I think we are talking 4x or 5x more at the chaebol.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by toasterlovin on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:49PM (#21632651)
They have the population to compete with European nations as a world superpower. But the world superpower is not a European country, it's the US. Japan has something like 1/3rd of the population of the US, and is also extremely constrained on a bunch of natural resources.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by bluedino on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:11PM (#21632258)
Except the US has been pretty open to immigration for the last 250 years, while Japan is 98% Japanese.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by xyzzyz on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:23PM (#21632380)
US has been pretty open to immigration at some points, and relatively closed at others. For the most of last 250 years, it has been mostly closed to non-white immigration, for example. With the exception of black Americans, the current racial and ethnic diversity in the US is a rather recent phenomenon.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by elgenie on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:44PM (#21633150)
The US had no laws restricting immigration, period, until 1882. The national origin quota system didn't exist at all until the 1920s.

Ethnic diversity has been part of the fabric of the US since before it was a country. Per census figures, the percentage of the population that wasn't born in the US was higher in 1910 that in it today.

And, of course, the very concept of "immigrant from Europe or descended from them => white" is a lot more recent than 250 years ago. The Irish weren't considered "white" when they arrived en masse after 1820. Italians, Greeks, and various Slavs also weren't considered "white" when they arrived in the early 20th century. Suspicion of divided loyalties for a Catholic president was a big issue in the 1960 elections (JFK vs Nixon).

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by xyzzyz on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @12:40PM (#21640574)
> The US had no laws restricting immigration, period, until 1882.

Yes, but it had Naturalization Act of 1790 that restricted naturalization only to white people. It wasn’t an immigration restriction, to be sure, but very few non-whites immigrated to US anyway (other than the forced immigration of black slaves), rendering the issue moot.

> And, of course, the very concept of "immigrant from Europe or descended from them => white" is a lot more recent than 250 years ago. The Irish weren't considered "white" when they arrived en masse after 1820. Italians, Greeks, and various Slavs also weren't considered "white" when they arrived in the early 20th century.

This is very much false and ahistorical. Many of them weren’t liked by then-locals, and in fact we’re often discriminated against, but at no point they were seriously considered non-white. There have been some activists recently claiming otherwise, but it has been based on very weak historical grounds. Consider, for example, that after the Ozawa case, at no point the question of Irish or Slavs’ whiteness ever came up on a court docket, while it did for Arabs, Syrians, Filipinos, and many others: https://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/White05.htm

> Suspicion of divided loyalties for a Catholic president was a big issue in the 1960 elections (JFK vs Nixon).

There was, but, as it turns out, Catholicism is not a race.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by wil421 on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:06PM (#21632822)
Tons of people hated the Irish for immigrating to the US. There are plenty of example of the hatred of Italians and Irish in the turn of the last century. Watch Gangs of New York for a taste of the bigotry.

Irish and Italians are lumped into White and now we have comments like yours. Most of the people in the US are from Europe so of course they favored family, friends, and countrymen coming over.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by tonmoy on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:57PM (#21632745)
I don’t understand the point of “white” and race in this conversation. In fact the concept of “white” may be a rather recent phenomenon.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by wil421 on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:02PM (#21632787)
It’s been my experience the US is against illegal immigration and abuse of things like H1-B but not immigration itself.

The US has the most immigrants than any other country by almost 5x at 48 million.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by seiko988 on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:18PM (#21632323)
Yet China is a global superpower and shut off from immigration
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by VWWHFSfQ on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:20PM (#21632347)
china has a billion people. they don't need immigration. japan's population is declining
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by seiko988 on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:47PM (#21632626)
The solution to people not having enough children is to have more children, you could enlist people from abroad to help with the effort, but you could also try to raise the birthrate using the existing population.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by brobinson on Monday November 25, 2019 @04:28PM (#21632993)
The PRC's total population and working age population will peak in the next five years or so and begin a steady decline from there. 33% of the population will be over 65 by 2050 according to projections.

There was a recent study from Peking University which hypothesized that the population actually peaked in 2018 and is already shrinking. (government numbers are unreliable)

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by dobleboble on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:36PM (#21632508)
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by wnevets on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:47PM (#21632624)
Not just a billion people but millions who are just now entering the workforce
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by raverbashing on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:22PM (#21632372)
They are not so shut-off to immigration as it is commonly imagined.

Also we might argue that the Chinese "self-migrate" with a huge amount of students that go for studies outside China but return later.

Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by toasterlovin on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:55PM (#21632723)
Internal migration is not the same thing as immigration.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by yorwba on Monday November 25, 2019 @05:10PM (#21633357)
It totally is. Someone migrating, say, from Changsha to Guangzhou is going to face a significant language barrier interacting with locals. Yes, they probably both speak passable Mandarin, but possibly with quite different accents affected by Xiang and Cantonese, respectively. An influx of easily recognizable outsiders is going to fuel resentment wherever they compete with locals for scarce resources like jobs and living space. The Chinese household registration system 户口 hùkǒu exists in part to keep that internal migration under control.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by toasterlovin on Monday November 25, 2019 @07:32PM (#21634472)
Internal migration poses difficulties, but it is not the same thing as immigration. People immigrating to China would probably not speak a language that is mutually comprehensible at all. They would have a much more different culture than internal migrants. But most importantly: immigrants have no claim to being stakeholders in China and how it is governed, whereas each and every citizen does.
Re:Japan wants foreign entrepreneurs, but what's missing? by user- on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:21PM (#21632359)
You understand that China is a widely different case right?