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Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by mipmap04 on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:57AM (#21545275)
I've found that, with the exception of daily stand-ups, all meetings must have a bullet point agenda and notes should be sent out for each meeting with risks, action items, issues and ownership of those items. If both of those things are lacking, I doubt how useful the meeting will be or was.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by Bartweiss on Friday November 15, 2019 @10:12AM (#21545408)
Not only do those things make meetings more productive, they increase the overhead to calling a meeting.

We don't often celebrate making things harder to do, but adding friction to something that's happening too often can help bring it back into balance. That's especially true for things with large "multipliers". An unscripted meeting might take one hour for the person calling it, but eat 10 hours of other people's time (plus interrupt them). Adding an hour of prep and summary for the caller lowers that ratio a bit so everyone has a more similar view of the meeting.

That's rarely grounds to make things harder with no benefit, but meeting prep has very solid benefits. Even in terms of time wasted, a clear agenda keeps meetings from dragging on, and routing minutes/summary after the fact avoids repeating discussions or inviting people who only need to listen.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by naravara on Friday November 15, 2019 @11:03AM (#21545920)
>We don't often celebrate making things harder to do, but adding friction to something that's happening too often can help bring it back into balance.

Sometimes friction creates abrasion and waste. Sometimes it creates the traction necessary to actually move forward without sliding all over the place like a hot mess.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by jimktrains2 on Friday November 15, 2019 @11:58AM (#21546448)
I can't believe I've never thought of it in physical terms before! This is perfect!

I'm working on some of our internal screens at work and part of this is me really trying to get things right and easy for everyone. However, yeah, there _are_ things that should be hard to impossible to do because they shouldn't be doing them and we've entered the realm of needing to coordinate with people and raise flags that something errored along the way.

At first people thought of it in terms of the needless waist friction that had become so prevelant, but soon came to realize that it was a good friction telling them they were off the beaten path, allowing them to hand stuff over to their managers and get problems taken care of before causing problems for customers, wasting customer services time as well as causing us to expend more resources to correct the mistake.

Like you said, friction in just the right places allows good things to happen.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by larrik on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:07PM (#21547135)
I see it as putting more of the cost of the meeting onto the caller, rather than spreading it amongst the participants via wasted time and energy (or the dreaded re-convene since no one was ready).
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by labawi on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:01PM (#21548202)
It's not just shifting costs. Maybe you trade say 1-3 units of time of caller for say 9x 1 units of time of attendees, for a 9/3 = 3x or more savings.

Callers tend to have higher salary, but usually way less than the people count multiplier.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by papito on Friday November 15, 2019 @10:21AM (#21545511)
Adding a barrier of entry to something generally improves the quality of whatever it is.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by Bartweiss on Friday November 15, 2019 @11:47AM (#21546341)
At the cost of quantity, but agreed.

(There have been some really interesting displays of this, like Robot 9k avoiding chat spam, or Kingdom of Loathing's 3-question "test" for joining global chat.)

Print fiction stories are higher average quality than web-published or fan-fiction, because they costs money to produce. Nobody prints and binds 500 words of unfinished, unedited rambling, but they certainly put it on AO3. But it turns out there's a lot of stuff that's interesting and valuable, yet too niche or awkwardly sized to justify printing.

So I guess there are two questions. First, does the barrier to entry improve the overall quality of the thing, or just weed out the weakest examples? Charging anyone who calls a meeting $10 would avoid some stupid meetings, but requiring an agenda can also improve worthwhile meetings. Second, are the marginal examples worth having? For a short story in a database, sure. For a five person meeting? Definitely not.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by jiofih on Friday November 15, 2019 @02:35PM (#21547987)
> Nobody prints and binds 500 words of unfinished, unedited rambling

A lot of people do. They just don’t reach you (vs internet distribution).

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by caro_douglos on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:11PM (#21547182)
might charging a ‘call to meeting’ fee based on the attendees salary/hourly rate be an alternative?
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by triceratops on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:39PM (#21547450)
Not sure how many people would want to pay to do their own jobs.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by dredmorbius on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:55PM (#21549903)
Allocating and drawing down a meeting budget pool might assist with this.

As a positive incentive, a countering "attending" pool, also budgetable. Meetings with strong appeal would be compensated from that.

Not sure what to do with the Imaginary Meeting Points at the end of the year, though possibly use it as the basis of some sort of merit award or bonus.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by Bartweiss on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:18AM (#21565454)
At a bare minimum, teams that plan via "story points" or other time units ought to count meetings in those scores. When they don't, you start getting teams that either "get nothing done" or have to work nights and weekends because planning meetings are displacing all their intended work.

For actually tracking Meeting Points, one option might be to make them a project metric? As in: "We predict our project will consume 21 Meeting Points, if we go over 25 that's a failure to be analyzed afterwards like overruning schedule or budget, if we're under 15 we're probably budgeting wrong".

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by throwawayjava on Saturday November 16, 2019 @12:45AM (#21551229)
And I thought a few extra vipers was bad! I can't even imagine the level of ensuing bullshit...
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by dredmorbius on Saturday November 16, 2019 @02:01PM (#21554289)
Properly designing incentive systems in a realm of pervasive externalities and nonobvious costs and benefits is difficult.

I'm not saying the market/cost approach is necessarily the best or appropriate. But it's an interesting thought experiment to work through it.

Sometimes imposing arbitrary requirements (e.g., "have an agenda") is a cheaper way of effecting the same ends. Though Goodhart's Law is another pitfall.

NB: "vipers"?

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by eitland on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:51PM (#21549550)
I'm not certain it is a good idea to to that but let me try to come up with a more constructive way to do it:

Of course people shouldn't pay to do their work, so this must be taken from their allocated budget. If they don't have a budget they cannot invite anyone without the permission of someone who has a budget and think the meeting is a good idea.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by memling on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:55PM (#21549901)
in contracting this is not uncommon. one employer I worked for bid on a contract that was later revised down by 75 percent. meetings were curtailed to save money precisely because of the cost to the customer. budget sensitivity is a valuable tool to fight time wastagement.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:13PM (#21547193)
I would be very concerned about that killing productivity by making it so that nobody is willing to schedule them at all.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by klenwell on Friday November 15, 2019 @11:47AM (#21546344)
A great former boss of mine and I adopted a silly catchphrase that was introduced to him by an efficiency guru at some managerial conference:

"No agenda, no attend-ah."

We groaned every time we used it. I've used it ever since.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by blaser-waffle on Friday November 15, 2019 @02:56PM (#21548166)
Yeah I groaned too but it's a good quote. I'll use it too...

The one I heard was "If we don't know what the meeting is for, how will we know what we're getting out of it if we attend?"

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by duxup on Friday November 15, 2019 @12:04PM (#21546502)
I was at a company that employed thousands of people.

They did a company wide training on effective meetings.

Set agendas, notes, and etc were all part of their training. It was great.

I never saw a single person do those things... not the VPs, not the CEO, nobody. I did it for my meetings as a sort of invisible act of defiance, but nobody ever read them before the meeting and most didn't know meeting invites came with anything other than the time, date, location info :(

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by progman32 on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:37PM (#21547431)
> "People don't do concrete things any more," he says.

I (dev) and my team certainly do.

To that end, I've started putting a standard caveat at the end of all my team meeting reminders on chat: Everyone is optional, but everyone who goes must have read the agenda and linked pre-reading.

First couple of times I did that, some people self-called-out as not having read the notes (after asking questions specifically addressed in the notes). After that it's been mostly good. People have thanked me for my efficient meetings, but all I did was to make people read the agenda :)

"Therapy" meetings certainly have their place, and I've personally grown a lot as a person in those. We have one (retro) every two weeks. But if most meetings in your organization are better thought of as therapy meetings... well, it's no surprise people don't do concrete things any more.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by Timberwolf on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:28PM (#21547357)
> not the VPs, not the CEO

This is the biggest problem where I've seen companies try to do this. The C-level and senior management team make a big fuss about how the company is having too many pointless meetings, they need to be effective, short and have agendas... and usually you can count in hours the time before the one of the exact same senior managers has sent a 2 hour, 20-person invite titled "project catch up" with a blank body.

(You can probably generalise this to many company initiatives, not just the ones about meeting habits.)

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by eitland on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:03PM (#21549638)
It feels like in almost every office kitchen I've been in in Norway there is some sort of label that say something that is supposed to be witty like: your mother does not work here, tidy up after yourself.

It mostly doesn't work.

Three places I worked had tidy kitchens. None of them had these labels, but more importantly: in all three of them management would fix it if others didn't. I guess most people only see their bosses boss tidy up a couple of times before they realize everyone is supposed to do that.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by rightbyte on Saturday November 16, 2019 @07:24AM (#21552316)
If my boss is too fancy to recook coffee so am I. Communal assets only work out if they are properly cared for by almost everyone except the usual antisocial free-riders who you have to ignore.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by prepend on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:45PM (#21549106)
I started refusing any meetings that didn’t say their purpose and desired outcome. I’m a schmeg so it just made people stop scheduling meetings with me and that was pretty good.

People seem really busy and tell me they are too busy to plan their meeting or prepare for mine. It’s a viscous cycle.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by mcv on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:20PM (#21547277)
I prefer meetings with just one clearly defined purpose that all participants agree is worth having a meeting for. Like "what are you currently working on?" (the daily stand-up), "what are we going to do this next sprint?" (the planning), "what is the best way to fix this problem we have?", "where do we want to be in 3 (or 6) months?".

As soon as there's more than one point on te agenda, the meeting is going to be a drag for half the participants.

(Of course that single purpose often still requires prep from the organiser and/or other participants.)

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by danielovichdk on Friday November 15, 2019 @12:36PM (#21546827)
Absolutely.

You can tell a lot about a person's professionalism by looking at their meeting invites.

I avtively refuse meetings without an agenda and a why this meeting is important. And I put a Joy in applying this on a management level too.

Don't fuck with people's time, it's the only thing we can't get back.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by Jd on Friday November 15, 2019 @10:58AM (#21545847)
Ever since I started ending time budgeting for each agenda item I've never looked back.

My agendas look like this:

(1) Two word emotional check in [Lead:Jd][budget: 5 minutes, actual: ]

(2) How did sprint one go? [Lead:Mark][budget: 7 minutes, actual: ]

(3) Should we have pizza or chinese food for lunch? [Lead:Francis][budget: 3 minutes, actual: ]

I send out the agendas in advance for anyone to PM me to add something.

Then I use a stop timer to track how many minutes were used per agenda and send it along with the minute meetings and action items post-meetings. Action items are almost always tracked some sort of issue tracker but I use different ones for different projects.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by Tobani on Friday November 15, 2019 @10:13AM (#21545420)
John Cleese taught us that in the 70's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meetings,_Bloody_Meetings
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by kevin_thibedeau on Friday November 15, 2019 @02:26PM (#21547908)
Back then information was disseminated via inter-office memos and meetings. They were more valuable for general communication than today.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by earthboundkid on Friday November 15, 2019 @10:33AM (#21545626)
Agreed but it also applies to standups. I think if you just want ambient awareness, have people post their daily "what I did/will do" to Slack. No need to derail every single day for half an hour or more.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by flatline on Friday November 15, 2019 @12:15PM (#21546605)
Half an hour or more is no longer a standup.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by earthboundkid on Friday November 15, 2019 @02:24PM (#21547888)
Doesn't mean that isn't what people are calling a "standup".

More seriously, even if standup actually were 5 minutes like it should be according to theory, no interruption takes less than half an hour to recover from and resume flow.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by username90 on Saturday November 16, 2019 @04:37AM (#21551809)
> standup actually were 5 minutes like it should be according to theory

Jeff Sutherland who invented scrum thinks it should be 15 minutes, so according to theory they should be 15 minutes:

> The Daily Scrum is a 15-minute time-boxed event for the Development Team. The Daily Scrum is held every day of the Sprint. At it, the Development Team plans work for the next 24 hours. This optimizes team collaboration and performance by inspecting the work since the last Daily Scrum and forecasting upcoming Sprint work. The Daily Scrum is held at the same time and place each day to reduce complexity

https://www.scrumguides.org/docs/scrumguide/v2017/2017-Scrum...

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by jk20 on Sunday November 17, 2019 @01:37PM (#21559257)
Scrum, Agile etc. is a nonsense which should be ended. The one reason why it is so popular is that it provides managers with opportunity to organize meetings - stand ups, planning, retrospectives,... Why in the world would anyone reach out to other people to figure out what to do in the next 24 hours? The development of even a minor feature takes longer than that, and contrary to Agile principles cannot be arbitrarily split into smaller parts.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by na85 on Friday November 15, 2019 @11:25AM (#21546135)
I find 15-minute, daily "sync meetings" to be an invaluable tool in coordinating the efforts of an organization with many moving parts.

The meeting chair (senior engineer) goes around the room and we all have the same list of items to report on each day. It helps avoid duplication of effort and also increases coordination in pursuit of objectives.

Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by kod on Saturday November 16, 2019 @09:59AM (#21552924)
No one is going to admit in writing on slack that they are stuck. In person it's a lot easier to call people out.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by ClumsyPilot on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:50PM (#21550656)
I find slack or similar sufficient, people blaberring into microphone dont really add anything
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by naravara on Friday November 15, 2019 @11:02AM (#21545910)
Not just an agenda but, if possible, an explanation for why each invitee is being invited and what they are expected to bring to the table. I can't count the number of meetings I show up to with only a foggy notion of why I was included or what important context I need to be aware of before discussion.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by zip1234 on Friday November 15, 2019 @12:40PM (#21546876)
A counterpoint is that I've seen that people get appointed to handle those things and the recurring meeting happens but with additional overhead and people involved. Source: working in government
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by ska on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:31PM (#21547383)
At one startup I was lucky/early enough to have the leverage to declare this as a policy (for me). If I didn't have minimally an agenda with a clear owner and at least one listed decision (or, rarely, a sensible request for inform only meeting) I wasn't going to attend. It got a bit of friction at first but increased the effectiveness of meetings by about 80% I think. It was nice while it lasted.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by lilbobbytables on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:57PM (#21548691)
Can you provide some examples? Need to push for changes like this myself.
Re:Pointless work meetings 'really a form of therapy' by cpeterso on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:41PM (#21549490)
As a project manager who runs and attends a lot of meetings :) I recommend these two books about planning and running effective meetings:

* "Effective Meeting Skills" by Marion Haynes is a short workbook from 1988. It looks dated, but the material is still relevant and a quick read. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0931961335/

* "The Surprising Science of Meetings: How You Can Lead Your Team to Peak Performance" by Steven Rogelberg. This 2019 book is great and includes useful findings from real studies of meetings. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0190689218/

This podcast interview with the author is a good introduction: https://www.gayleallen.net/cm-127-steven-rogelberg-on-making...