Re:Calm Before the Storm
by pjc50 on Friday November 15, 2019 @07:30AM
(#21544282)
I'm not sure I'd trust lowest bidder flag of convenience ships operating beyond national law to operate a reactor safely without ever dumping radioactive material in the only ocean we have.
Re:Calm Before the Storm
by dredmorbius on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:22AM
(#21544522)
To say nothing of the 200 or so ships lost at sea every decade. Not evenly distributed across the oceans, but concentrated in sea lanes, especially near ports and land, especially choke points such as straits, capes, and canals.
The scale of operations, with ~80,000 registered commercial large ships, regulation of an international activity dominated by lowest-cost, least-regulated, flag-of-convenience registries (as you note), very often minimally-trained, and very disempowered crews (authoritarian / high-gradient socio-economic-political power discrepencies play a role in numerous accident dynamics), training, and scrapping practices all put a distinct chill in that notion.
Re:Calm Before the Storm
by pjc50 on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:40AM
(#21545132)
I'm reminded of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery : 1,400 tonnes of explosives sunk in the Thames estuary. At least it's safeish as long as nobody touches it. The couple of nuclear reactors in subs that have already sunk are I believe in deep distant water, losing one inshore would be a serious problem.
Re:Calm Before the Storm
by i_am_proteus on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:56AM
(#21544137)
Biofuels are a much simpler carbon-free option for ships. Cargo ships are built and scrapped, made to last only a few decades. Powering them with nuclear would be insanely cumbersome and expensive.
Re:Calm Before the Storm
by klemudooj on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:35AM
(#21544045)
No wonder that support for this fearmongering hit piece for Type Investigations comes from Anti-nuclear foundations, and i mean all of them (Bottom of the page)
Re:Calm Before the Storm
by tempguy9999 on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:34AM
(#21543548)
This is exactly why I am against nuclear power, not because it is in any way bad but because it gets treated with not much more sophistication than a chimp would given matches.
Nuclear power is of fabulous value, but the way it gets turned into a potential liability is what puts me off it. It seems to be the way the human race approaches anything; with the shortest term view.
Re:Calm Before the Storm
by dsfyu404ed on Friday November 15, 2019 @07:41AM
(#21544312)
>* A nuclear reactor is pretty much the only thing where a local fuckup can have globally disastrous consequences
Hydro-electric wants you to hold its beer.
Over the timeline that civilian nuclear has existed dams going pop has killed a lot more people and caused more destruction than nuclear. The fact that the consequences are "global" is mostly a reflection of how good we are at measuring radiation. While (for example) Chernobyl going pop was detectable over much of Europe the actual amount of radiation was of basically no consequence (i.e. less than more local sources of air pollution) except in the immediate vicinity.
Re:Calm Before the Storm
by tempguy9999 on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:25PM
(#21547326)
It's unclear what high probabliity, distributed fuckup you're talking about. Climate change? In that case I'm entirely with you but that's a result of the same short-termism I mentioned.
I am horribly certain we've painted ourselves into a corner.
But because it's not going to happen[1] this one probably needs decommissioning.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption
Lots of our energy is spent on heat, whether residential or industrial.
Nuclear produces heat. If only we used this for district heating, container ships, and electricity
The scale of operations, with ~80,000 registered commercial large ships, regulation of an international activity dominated by lowest-cost, least-regulated, flag-of-convenience registries (as you note), very often minimally-trained, and very disempowered crews (authoritarian / high-gradient socio-economic-political power discrepencies play a role in numerous accident dynamics), training, and scrapping practices all put a distinct chill in that notion.
Their role in commerce is limited.
Nuclear power is of fabulous value, but the way it gets turned into a potential liability is what puts me off it. It seems to be the way the human race approaches anything; with the shortest term view.
The merit of any tool is in wielding it wisely.
* People's greed, stupidity and laziness means that in practice, there is no such thing as a safe technology.
* A nuclear reactor is pretty much the only thing where a local fuckup can have globally disastrous consequences
Hydro-electric wants you to hold its beer.
Over the timeline that civilian nuclear has existed dams going pop has killed a lot more people and caused more destruction than nuclear. The fact that the consequences are "global" is mostly a reflection of how good we are at measuring radiation. While (for example) Chernobyl going pop was detectable over much of Europe the actual amount of radiation was of basically no consequence (i.e. less than more local sources of air pollution) except in the immediate vicinity.
As opposed to a distributed fuckup that has >95% probability of failure.
I meant within next 100 years or so. On a predefined time horizon.
I am horribly certain we've painted ourselves into a corner.