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Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by orky56 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:22PM (#21526695)
Flooding and other symptoms of climate change are externalities that countries & corporations are not acknowledging let alone paying for. Who's responsible for compensating the businesses of Venice who are effected? Is it the government of Venice? Italy? If history has taught us anything, these entities are on their own.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by rootusrootus on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:34PM (#21526890)
The city has been sinking for quite a long time, are any businesses surprised when the floods come?
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by sbov on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:55PM (#21527164)
Yeah, most of Venice's problems are due to pumping water from the aquifer under the city.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by Lucadg on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:08PM (#21527318)
not really, source please
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by safsafsa on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:08PM (#21528116)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027277141...

It really doesn't need a source. If Venice takes too much water from an aquifer then subsidence is unavoidable. The city is sitting on top of a sponge, after all. This is true for any city that's not built on bedrock (which I believe includes half of Manhattan and Miami. NYC of course draws from the Hudson)

Anyway, as the paper states the subsidence exasperates rising sea levels.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by jcranmer on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:36PM (#21529868)
NYC's primary water supply comes from the Catskills, not from local aquifers or local riverine supplies (the Hudson River is too salty around Manhattan to draw from).
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by gattilorenz on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:10PM (#21530799)
> It really doesn't need a source.

If the claim is that it is the main problem, I think it does need a source, and by reading the abstract it doesn't seem like yours is one.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by Yeroc on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:04PM (#21527278)
I visited Amsterdam recently and noticed in conversation with a number of people that both the citizens and governments are very aware and concerned about climate change since they're in a particularly vulnerable position to rising ocean levels.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by the-dude on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:13PM (#21528197)
We are already below sea level, and experts claim we can handle an additional multiple meters of sea level rise : https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2019/10/04/we-kunnen-meters-zeespi... ( Dutch )

We will be fine and there are no worries in NL except from climate alarmists.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by baq on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:24PM (#21528347)
NL dikes can handle that but wouldn't you be flooded from behind via Germany and France?
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by the-dude on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:31PM (#21528435)
Well, in Europe rivers flow from high terrain to the sea ( low terrain ).

We are at sea. Rivers come from central Europe.

As I said, nobody worries except climate alarmist and poorly educated people.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by stevenwoo on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:29PM (#21526803)
Even when there is someone responsible like the USA government for the nuclear waste close to sea level at the Marshall Islands, it’s hard to get accountability after the early years. https://www.latimes.com/projects/marshall-islands-nuclear-te...
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by the-dude on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:31PM (#21526840)
Are you stating that any flooding and other symptoms of climate change are externalities of countries and corporations?

Would the earth be static if there were no countries or corporations?

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by wjnc on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:35PM (#21526916)
Uhm, I would answer that as a Yes (but I think you would disagree). It'd be a subsistence level of existence for the several (tens of) millions of humans in existence in that scenario, but one with hardly any human impact on the global climate. The thought would be that massive specialisation led to our current level of (material) wealth and that both countries and corporations are signals of cooperation and thus facilite specialisation.

Even if I think of something like a Nozickian world as a starter, with exchangeable money as a transaction facility for transferring information, I immediately think we would see the roaming "tribes" as something akin to corporations.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by the-dude on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:56PM (#21527189)
Sea level has been rising thousands, ten thousands of years : 6-8k yrs ago, I would be able to walk to the UK from NL.

The North Sea was inhatibed : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by eyko on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:30PM (#21527605)
The rate at which the sea levels rose was much slower and much of that water was frozen in the arctic. The past couple of centuries are exceptionally different.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by kibwen on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:53PM (#21527889)
To that end, here's one of my favorite XKCDs ever, which is a long-form chart of Earth's average temperature for the past 22,000 years, including notes about the advancing and receding of ice and sea levels: https://xkcd.com/1732/ It does a fabulous job of driving home the rate at which the current pace of warming exceeds geological norms.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by the-dude on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:05PM (#21528080)
Would you care to back that up? If I DDG it https://duckduckgo.com/?q=historic+sea+level+rise&t=ffab&ia=...

I end up at https://skepticalscience.com/Past-150000-Years-of-Sea-Level-... ( that's right ) :

"During all episodes of major global ice loss, sea level rise has reached rates of at least 1.2 metres per century (equivalent to 12 mm per year). This is 4 times the current rate of sea level rise."

Not relying on one opinion, I view the XKCD of the sibbling : no sources.

Next hit on DDG : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_sea_level :

"Observational and modeling studies of mass loss from glaciers and ice caps indicate a contribution to a sea-level rise of 2 to 4 cm over the 20th century. "

Which is very low.

Would you care to back up your statement?

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by JshWright on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:53PM (#21528698)
> Not relying on one opinion, I view the XKCD of the sibbling : no sources.

I'm having a hard time parsing that... Are you suggesting the XKCD graph lacks sources?

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by briantakita on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:59PM (#21527221)
Those Cambrian creatures, driving their SUVs caused CO2 to be over 15x what it is today. The Cambrian life impact, living beyond their means, exploding with massive specialization of genetic diversity, should be ashamed for their usage of Earth's resources.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by downvoted on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:18PM (#21528271)
The changes in the weather patterns observed over the last few decades are more complex than just warmer temperatures, and it will be many decades before it is clear if climate change contributed to the intensifying storminess we're seeing. But the new research is a reminder that these extreme weather events are likely to increase in frequency and intensity as the planet warms, and that scientists need to keep an eye on that.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by DiogenesKynikos on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:26PM (#21527556)
It would not be static, but the rate of change would be much slower than it is right now. Raising the level of atmospheric CO2 by over 50%, which humans have done in the past hundred years, increases the greenhouse effect enough to cause rapid warming and sea-level rise.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by advanceduser on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:00PM (#21528015)
You know tides are not caused by climate, right?
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by JshWright on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:12PM (#21528173)
Tides are deviation from mean sea level caused by gravitational interactions with the Moon (primarily). "Climate" doesn't impact gravity. It absolutely does impact the baseline sea level (a higher sea level means higher tides).
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by advanceduser on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:27PM (#21528377)
Venice would be flooded every 24 hours if this were a result of baseline sea level increase.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by JshWright on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:48PM (#21528643)
That's not even remotely how tides work... For starters, tides in the Mediterranean sea are semidiurnal, so it would be flooded every 12 hours, not every 24.

In reality though, tides vary significantly, in a periodic fashion, based on various cyclic factors. The Moon is not a fixed distance from the Earth, and the gravity of the Sun (and how it aligns with the Moon's gravity) plays a role as well. The level of "high tide" changes over the course of decades as those cycles overlap and diverge (like constructive and destructive wave interference).

I'm also not suggesting that climate change is the primary driver of the worsening flooding in Venice (geologic subsidence is major culprit there... the city is literally sinking). I was just pointing out that it's silly to claim that climate doesn't influence tides.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by parliament32 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:27PM (#21526781)
Insurance, just like any other weather-caused damage.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by safsafsa on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:14PM (#21528213)
Insurance doesn't work that way. Insurance works by the insurer selling a bet that an event wont happen so that the buyer is covered if it does.

The insured doesn't mind paying for a (negative expected value) policy because the peace of mind is worth much more than the premium.

The insurer doesn't mind because they're making many bets across many flood plains.

The insurer is basically making money by charging a small premium to coordinate and ensure different people help each other out when they get unlucky.

As soon as flooding is guaranteed, there is no point of insurance since the premium is equal to the coverage provided.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by munk-a on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:35PM (#21526905)
Whether that cost is paid unexpectedly after a disaster or in installments leading up to a disaster really dodges the question - also, offering any sort of long term weather related insurance seems pretty risky right now and I wouldn't really trust any such insurance. The party offering it might just get overwhelmed and declare bankruptcy.

No matter which approach to ameliorate the cost is taken, I think it's quite valid to be concerned that this cost won't be levied on those that have contributed to the damage.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by stevenwoo on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:33PM (#21526864)
In the USA the national flood insurance program has distorted the market in an incredible way by incentivizing building and constant rebuilding in flood prone areas.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by munk-a on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:37PM (#21526933)
I think it's a bi of a reach to say that it incentivizes building in flood prone areas - there isn't, as far as I'm aware, any active reward for such actions - but it certainly doesn't appropriately punish such stupidity.

I'd love it if everyone who was hit by a hurricane was given money to rebuild somewhere safer, but just once.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by magduf on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:12PM (#21527360)
I'm not sure about the US's national flood insurance, but for other things, it doesn't always enable stupidity. If there's private insurance companies involved, they usually won't insure abject stupidity. Even government insurance has its limits.

As an example, Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast back in 2005, and it was a total disaster. Flooding, of course, was not covered by private insurance (it's been like this for a very long time), only wind, so there was a lot of arguing over whether insurance companies had to cover losses because the storm surge was actually caused by wind, and a lot of damage was solely caused by the hurricane-force Category 5 winds. I'm probably leaving some important details out...

Anyway, the aftermath was that private insurance companies in that area refused to insure wind damage to buildings. It just wasn't worth the risk. So the state (Mississippi) came up with something called the "wind pool" which was government-provided insurance for wind damage. The problem was, it was really expensive. So a lot of people never did rebuild, a lot of people left (or moved farther inland, where the insurance was cheaper), etc.

The bottom line is that enabling stupidity as far as building location only works long-term if it's being subsidized. If insurance reflects the true risk of building in a certain place, then it really limits that kind of activity.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by stevenwoo on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:11PM (#21600779)
There is no private insurance available for people in certain flood vulnerable areas in the USA - the NFIP is the only insurer available. When Congress attempted to make the premiums more reflective of the risk most recently, they rolled them back immediately when voters complained.
Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by stevenwoo on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:06PM (#21600749)
I agree with the moving people, refusing coverage after repeat usage in one location but the last time that was in Congress it failed to pass and minor reform was rolled back when they realized how many people were going to lose coverage.

Most of the initial premiums are based on 100 year flood plain maps based on recent years of rain (which may not have been typical), assume that rivers are static objects that do not change course, assume that coastal sand beaches are static and not dynamic.

By letting people stay in places that flood repeatedly and removing the risk for home owners/purchasers, the NFIP incentivizes building and rebuilding in areas that flood. According to this article, there were 37000 homes at the time of writing that had flooded four times and gotten at least 5000 in coverage payout (I could be wrong but last time I checked that is the most I could get in earthquake insurance when I read the annual offer around 2000 from my homeowners insurance). The NFIP is underwriting pretty well off people's lifestyle of living on a beach/river front/bayou. https://www.seattletimes.com/business/flood-insurance-rebuil...

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by michaelmrose on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:01PM (#21528022)
It inflates the value of land that is truly worth little because anything you build there would be destroyed and nobody in their right mind would insure you for any reasonable sum.

Reasonable insurance is expected cost * probability + enough margin for a small profit + cover bad bets.

The gap between a reasonable rate and the rate paid is a gift paid to homeowners with above average wealth and builders with below average sense.

Since builders can earn more building a home that will be flooded out in 7 years with a higher selling price by virtue of beings water front property but only if the government subsidizes insurance they are directly incentivized to do so.

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by altoidaltoid on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:39PM (#21526973)
https://www.wsj.com/articles/one-house-22-floods-repeated-cl...

"The six-bedroom house, which has an indoor swimming pool, sits along the San Jacinto River. It has flooded 22 times since 1979, making it one of the most flood-damaged properties in the country."

Re:Venice Battles Flooding Amid Highest Tide in 50 Years by fooblitzky on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:51PM (#21527116)
Venice should sue the fossil fuel companies for damages, like Hawaii: https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/11/honolulu-to-fossil-fuel-co...