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Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by rossdavidh on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @11:57AM (#21526297)
It's not the marketing. It's the fact that it's what biologists call expensive signaling. You are spending money, not on a trip that you both enjoy, but on a ring that really only she enjoys. This is an expensive (therefore hard to fake) signal that you care about how she feels.

Now, imagine that the diamond is cheaper. It is no longer an expensive signal. Therefore, although the diamond is the same, it no longer serves the same purpose. So, the cheaper diamonds get, the less demand there is from prospective brides, even if only marginally. This fuels further declines, although that is probably already happening due to better industrial diamonds.

This takes time, of course. But that also means it has a lot of momentum. As the price decline continues, and the word of that spreads, it will accelerate.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by im3w1l on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:09PM (#21529591)
I think explaining it as just signalling is taking a too narrow view of it.

Having a diamond wedding ring is like having a turkey for thanksgiving. That's just the way it's done. It's a part of the culture, maybe you could even say there are religious elements to it.

And that was achieved through marketing.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by c5karl on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:28PM (#21530388)
> and that was achieved through marketing

To elaborate: The "tradition" of diamond engagement rings only dates back to the 1930s, invented almost whole cloth by the DeBeers cartel to sell diamonds. For that reason, I think saying it's a "part of the culture" overstates things. This is not a long tradition that connects us to our ancestors.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by dzdt on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:28PM (#21530957)
The tradition of singing "happy birthday" isn't much older, but I would surely say it is part of our culture!
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by smegger001 on Thursday November 14, 2019 @01:07AM (#21533170)
the average person has the birthday song sung at them every year, and sings it to friends family and co-workers multiple time per year, ideally you only give/receive a diamond ring once a lifetime.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by blaser-waffle on Thursday November 14, 2019 @10:30AM (#21536129)
Sure. But you see people giving diamonds all the time. It's a meme, a discussion topic, reinforced each time you hear the ladies on the train discuss their friend's new "gigantic finger rock".

Just cuz you yourself are making the purchase once doesn't mean it is in a thing much of the time.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by girvo on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:50PM (#21530590)
Slightly off topic, but what are some traditions that connect us to our ancestors in modern western society? I honestly can’t think of any as a Kiwi living in Australia with a Scottish ancestry and that makes me a bit sad now that I think about it
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by ncmncm on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @07:24PM (#21531397)
Leatherworkers still use certain tools, today, that are precisely identical to those used 50,000 years ago. They were perfect for the job then, and still are.

Not working animal skins? You could if you wanted to.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by el_dev_hell on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:42PM (#21531074)
1. Smashing a schooner glass at the pub and collectively yelling "Taxi" as a visceral response (this must have taken generations to embed).

2. Keeping mental tabs on which mate always ducks out before they buy the round and making up for it at a BBQ by grabbing a beer out of their Esky. Possibly leading to a fist fight at around 11:30PM and then making up at around 12:01AM.

3. "Sorry mate" as the default response when you're unable to grab the door for a stranger because you're a few CMs too far away.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by lurquer on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:21PM (#21530897)
Well, there's the long-standing tradition of Anglos exploring and settling the ends of the earth... as a Scot/Kiwi/Australian, in regard to this particular tradition, perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees! ;)
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by CydeWeys on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @07:28PM (#21531435)
Go hunting with a self bow or spear, and cook your kill over a fire. That'll connect you with your ancestors going waaaay back.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by smegger001 on Thursday November 14, 2019 @01:11AM (#21533183)
I kinda want to go spear hunting but it is illegal where I live. The only animal I can legally spear is a fish in my State an I would rather fish with a flyrod than spear.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by AareyBaba on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @09:03PM (#21532088)
I'm certain gender reveal parties and baby showers are not in any culture's ancient traditions.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by dragonwriter on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @09:07PM (#21532109)
> I'm certain gender reveal parties and baby showers are not in any culture's ancient traditions.

Well, you’re half right. Baby showers in various forms definitely are in many cultures ancient traditions. Gender reveal parties (at least pre-natal ones; there's some post-natal traditions that have some similarity), quite obviously, not.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by lacker on Thursday November 14, 2019 @03:12AM (#21533701)
Christianity is a big one, although that might not apply to you.

A lot of Western culture that goes back hundreds of years has its roots in either religion or the Enlightenment. Holidays, the scientific method, the individualist concept of humanism, capitalism.

Last names. The seven-day week. Learning European history in elementary school. The food you eat every day. Just a bunch of random stuff, really. Think of every way your culture differs from China or Cameroon.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by sitkack on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:02PM (#21530719)
In the US at least, we are relatively cut off from our immediate past. It is easier to tell people that it is a tradition and we will believe them.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by anewguy9000 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:26PM (#21530939)
"culture" doesnt mean prehistoric, since it could be seen as the collective activities of a particular time (ex 20th century pop culture. or another example is "canadian culture", which includes things like multiculturalism and universal healthcare. these things are much more recent than 1930!)
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by JauntTrooper on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:50PM (#21530597)
I think that's right.

My wife is a practical, pragmatic person. But she wanted a diamond ring. She felt sheepish about wanting one.

The expense wasn't the appeal, and she's never been interested in signaling consumer goods otherwise like clothes, purses, fashion, jewelry, cars etc. If I had gotten a rarer, more expensive stone that was not a diamond, she would not have liked it as much. The cultural element of the diamond ring was a big part of the appeal.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by gyuserbti on Thursday November 14, 2019 @01:30AM (#21533258)
Another one in a similar situation. My wife is also very practical and socially conscious. We looked into moissanite really seriously and almost bought a custom ring with it made by a local artist/metalsmith we were working with, and my wife was like "I don't know why but I just don't want this." She knew she wouldn't be happy and was trying to be honest. So we looked into other precious gems, other nontraditional minerals (because of hardness) and she kept coming back to diamonds. The synthetic market at the time wasn't very good, and secondhand was too risky in terms of provenance for her, so we ended up with a Canadian diamond.

I'd love to see the market change, to support more diversity in what's normative. But it is too late for us. My wife loves her ring but it was kind of a surprising reaction for her to deal with. She's said that if it were any other jewelry she'd be fine with something other than diamond. She also in retrospect wishes she had been accepting of moissanite. But it was what it was.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by puranjay on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:25PM (#21528356)
I don't know if it's so much about the money as it is something that she just... wanted. I'm Indian so its custom to gift the bride a lot of gold. She eschewed that happily in favor of a diamond ring that cost a fraction of the gold she was offered otherwise.

But she loves her ring and has never spent a day without it. She will happily wear faux silver earrings but the ring is non negotiable.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by roenxi on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:51PM (#21529405)
Your wife might be special, but there are differences in the signalling of a diamond and gold despite their superficial similarities.

Gold is famous for holding its resale value; so a gift of gold can in theory be unwound to recover the money spent. It is a signal of wealth.

Diamonds cannot be resold, the money may as well have been burned. It is a signal of wealth and commitment. There is also the added bonus that a diamond is not going to be stolen.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by bsanr2 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:14PM (#21529648)
>Diamonds cannot be resold.

I wasn't aware of this. What's the rationale?

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by praptak on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:00PM (#21530091)
Try the classic "Have you ever tried to sell a diamond?" article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-yo...

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by sbierwagen on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:17PM (#21529679)
They can be sold of course, but you'll get back maybe 50% of the purchase price.

https://www.diamonds.pro/education/sell-diamonds/

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by takeda on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:31PM (#21529819)
Superstition that wearing someone's wedding ring is a bad luck. Probably was similarly manufactured to keep higher demand for diamonds.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by ncmncm on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @07:47PM (#21531583)
More that the people you would take it to have way too many already, and would love to unload them on the next pigeon.

I have got some mileage out of characterizing mined diamonds as symbolizing south-African slavery. At least, my wife didn't want one.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by kirykl on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:07PM (#21530776)
>Diamonds cannot be resold, the money may as well have been burned

I wonder how much money you'd have to actually burn to extract enough carbon to create a decently sized diamond from it

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by ncmncm on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @07:42PM (#21531542)
Nothing like what they cost.

Paper is, what, 44-50% carbon by weight? Imagine a ring with the weight of even a small stack of bills.

It wasn't long ago that the paper was worth more than the rock.

But if you burn it, you lose the carbon. Char it instead.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by smegger001 on Thursday November 14, 2019 @01:14AM (#21533196)
Paper was valuable enough at one point it was considered the traditional gift for first anniversaries in the U.S.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by dan-robertson on Thursday November 14, 2019 @05:37AM (#21534365)
I think the reason that it is the first anniversary gift is that it was not considered valuable (unlike eg silver/gold/ruby/diamond/...)
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by ncmncm on Thursday November 14, 2019 @09:14AM (#21535465)
We used to joke that the 19th anniversary gift theme was packing peanuts.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by sbierwagen on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:14PM (#21529650)
>I don't know if it's so much about the money as it is something that she just... wanted.

"Thou Art Godshatter".[1] Long-term fitness-increasing Machiavellian plots are encoded as simple human desires. Indeed, social plays like this one work much better if the host thinks it's something they "just want" rather than some grim manipulative scheme to prove your loyalty.

1: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/cSXZpvqpa9vbGGLtG/thou-art-g...

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by btrask on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:02PM (#21530116)
You don't sound like a very romantic person. There are other things in the world more expensive than diamonds, but she didn't ask him to buy her a skyscraper or Renaissance painting. Different gifts have different meanings, and it's no less logical than different words having different meanings. People associate specific meanings with specific types of stones, flowers, beverages, you name it. You can't substitute "I greatly enjoy the time we spend together" for "I love you."
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by sbierwagen on Thursday November 14, 2019 @02:05PM (#21538297)
I must admit to some confusion. I am closely rereading my original comment, and I am failing to find where I suggested that buying a skyscraper is the same as buying a ring.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by tomp on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:42PM (#21529300)
You're deluding yourself. She could not have at the same time "just wanted" a diamond ring and also "just wanted" you to overpay it 100x times (she cannot notice the difference, so a diamond and a non-diamond ring are functionally equivalent in her eyes, except that you're paying less for one of them)...
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by miketuritzin on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:23PM (#21529748)
It's also worth noting that it's possible to "just want" something for reasons that one isn't consciously aware of (e.g., feeling physically attracted to markers of health and fertility).
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by standardUser on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:22PM (#21526691)
This reminds me of the popular idea of "love languages". I was always baffled by the idea that some people considered "gifts" to be the most important way to express love. But diamond rings seem to fit this paradigm perfectly.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by magduf on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:24PM (#21527528)
No, it's different. For instance, gift-giving is a really big deal in Asian cultures. It's not about throwing lots of money around, it's just showing that you're thinking of someone, so gifts can be very small and inexpensive. So gift-giving is certainly a valid love language, just like physical touch, words of affection, etc. Some people just really like to give their loved one small gifts, and some people really like getting them. They can be small clothing items, candies/food, whatever.

Diamonds aren't "small gifts"; they're absurdly expensive ornaments. Their primary purpose is so American women can show off to other women how much money their husbands have. It's a bit like having a really expensive luxury car: it's a signal to others to show you're rich, not a way for someone to show affection to another.

Edit: About Asian cultures, I'll also add, it's just just lovers. Coworkers will frequently get each other small gifts, or gifts for everyone on the team. This is usually small food items, not anything at all expensive. They might do this if they travel somewhere. I had an Asian (i.e., he had just moved from SE Asia for this job) coworker once give everyone on our team some nice variety of tea, for instance.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by phjesusthatguy3 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:56PM (#21528740)
It's like buying lunch. When your manager does it, you thank him. When your cow-orker does it, you think "what is this guy up to?"
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by MikePlacid on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @06:04AM (#21646918)
When my manager tried to pay for my lunch, I declined and paid myself (I am from Russia, we had no such tradition at that time). The feelings I had were a mix of: a) is he trying to make me a teacher’s pet? I am not a teacher’s pet; b) is he trying to show that he has some power over me except paying my salary? At lunch break? He has no power over me except paying my salary, I can well afford to buy my own lunch.

An American visiting from other company was completely dumbfounded: Why have you paid yourself?? He is your boss, it’s his responsibility to pay when he invites you to lunch!!

...And I was completely dumbfounded observing his reaction: have Americans no pride?

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by throwawaymath on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:51PM (#21529406)
Why are you suspicious of a coworker buying you lunch?
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by magduf on Thursday November 14, 2019 @11:10AM (#21536552)
I sure would be. Why would someone spend that much money on me unless they're a closer relation?

Buying small gifts for coworkers is one thing, but buying lunch is a bit much. I wouldn't spend more than $5 on a gift for a coworker.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by blaser-waffle on Thursday November 14, 2019 @01:05PM (#21537728)
Cuz he's making, presumably, the same amount of money I am (or in the same ballpark). So either he got a raise, or he has an agenda...
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by praptak on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:04PM (#21530138)
I have heard that it's good taste for those gifts to be impermanent. Sort of opposite of the diamond.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by smegger001 on Thursday November 14, 2019 @01:19AM (#21533214)
yes and not actually they are both good for the same reason, IE they don't hold value. This sort of gift is social signalling that you are willing to sacrifice a certain amount of wealth for them. Neither chocolate, flowers or diamonds have good resale value so you are sacrificing for the partners happiness.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by praptak on Thursday November 14, 2019 @02:21AM (#21533479)
Not holding value is a different thing though. The permanent gift creates an obligation to keep it.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by oarabbus_ on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:43PM (#21527757)
>I was always baffled by the idea that some people considered "gifts" to be the most important way to express love.

I'm baffled that you're baffled. Gift-giving is common in every culture, country, and religion in the world.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by blacksmith_tb on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:23PM (#21529068)
The function of gift-giving was an early topic of social anthropology, a classic treatment being Mauss' _Essai sur la Don_ [1]. It contains the (to me) stunning Inuit proverb "Gifts make slaves like whips make dogs" - gift-giving binds the recipient to the giver, it leaves them obligated. Which is not the rosy picture we have of it, but worth thinking about in this context (or any other).

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_(book)

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by DoctorOetker on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:52PM (#21528690)
so with blood diamonds, this is effectively... Proof of Violence?

it really is marketing, since the value signalling could just occur by wiring your wife $20k or whatever, no need to violate overseas human rights

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by yellowapple on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:01PM (#21528804)
Apparently it ain't the monetary value, per the other comments, which leads me to believe that what makes a diamond ring romantic is specifically the human suffering.

Suddenly Padmé agreeing to marry a guy who slaughtered an entire village of Sand People and monologued to her about it makes a lot more sense.

Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by lordnacho on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:59PM (#21529492)
Then why not buy a moissanite golf ball for her to wear? Just as expensive, but blinding signal.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by drcross on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:01PM (#21530717)
Welcome to the irrationality (or pseudo rationality) of the human race. My hope is these materials flood the market like this article alludes to so that the market is destroyed and we can move on to something else. Another "fitness indicator" that im happy to see go is the preference for a sports car among young men.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by lordnacho on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:19PM (#21530877)
As one of those guys formerly, I can only agree. Does very little for you in terms of satisfaction. Or proving fitness for that matter. Ended up selling my fancy Italian car to a guy who actually understood cars.
Re:Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper by lakisy on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @07:36PM (#21531499)
It's the marketing. When I married, I suggest that we should spent the same amount of money to buy something that's looks like a diamond but it's not a diamond. No go. The price would be the same. So the expensive signal was there. Nope. She wanted a diamond. If it's not a diamond, it's not real.