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Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by choeger on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:11PM (#21518734)
Please drop your inevitable BER jokes below so we can recylce them properly later.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by jcranmer on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:54PM (#21520047)
Wait, so if I have this correct, the airport took ~6 years to construct and 9 years and counting to correct problems with its construction? Meaning that it would have been faster to tear the entire building down and rebuild it from scratch than it is taking to remedy the issues?

How does that happen‽

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by detaro on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:05PM (#21520121)
Massive failures in oversight and management. Airport building/management company that makes changes to the design pretty randomly, total failure in oversight mechanisms (basically, there was no review process in place which could have caught this while it was going on), as a result a building that doesn't match the original plans, doesn't conform to regulations and where in the end the actual state of what exists wasn't even known. Brought down by failing the fire safety certifications shortly before the opening, at which point the slow "figure out what happened and who to blame" process began, and then attempts to fix it. It's a glorious mess.

Even if there had been a consensus on almost-rip-and-replace immediately, it's not clear that could have been done as quickly, given the amount of preparation needed.

(As an example of the kind of changes, during the building process they decided to re-assign arrivals and departures to different floors of the building. Which in an airport has fairly fundamental consequences due to security zones etc...)

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by usrusr on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:12PM (#21520183)
According to lore, it all started with the architect deciding against the tried and tested usage of little chimney-like structure on top of the terminal roofs for fire protection de-fuming, insisting instead on some novel, less visible solutions for aesthetic reasons. Those then caused all kinds of follow-up issues, eventually leading into the construction equivalent of the perpetual bugfix cycle, where every fix brings two new problems. Compounded by a colorful parade of high level "fix it guys" taking over the reins and failing in short progression, adding to the chaos.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by detaro on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:14PM (#21520200)
As far as I remember, the estimation was that the fire system was properly designed (although more complex for the mentioned artistic reasons) and would have worked - for the building that was originally planned, which the airport company then changed massively.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by flukus on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:46AM (#21521437)
Seems like there's a lesson there about sticking to tried and proven solutions even if you come up with a better one. Or maybe it's a worse is better thing?
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by PavlovsCat on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:49AM (#21522172)
https://onemileatatime.com/berlin-brandenburg-airport/

> In 2014 it was revealed that Alfredo di Mauro, the chief planner for the airport’s fire protection system, was not a qualified engineer but an engineering draftsman. He admitted this, saying everyone thought he was a proper engineer and ‘he didn’t contradict them.’

> His mistakes have cost hundreds of millions of dollars to fix.

As a tangent, not to belittle the corruption around BER, and with more tongue in cheek than snark: I wonder how many people responsible for things on this list https://hn.algolia.com/?q=breach (insofar the cause was negligence) have "software engineer" in their job title or description? If you ctrl+F "engineer" in those articles and discussions, you'll see it thrown about quite casually. If architecture was like software, buildings would regularly just collapse, and sudden death would just be an accepted risk risk of going into a building or walking past one. Some people would complain about that, but we would consider them idealists and their demands incompatible with progress and prosperity.

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by willyt on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:28AM (#21522391)
Emergency smoke ventilation is a solved problem, ‘little chimneys on the roof’ are one of many different solutions; there are lots of different strategies. So that sounds like nonsense. Source, I’ve worked on mega projects like this. If it’s true that someone decided to swap departures with arrivals once the building was already on site, I would say that’s your problem right there. Whoever is responsible for that caused this mess. I would hazard a guess that the airport was originally briefed to be designed as primarily a government funded transport interchange, someone decided it should make some money to help pay for the costs and the only way to make room for the extended corridors full of shops was to turn the design concept upside down.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by gmueckl on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:35AM (#21522682)
The smoke ventilation system was originally designed to rely on fans to blow the smoke downwards in the ventilation shafts. As far as I know, nobody had tried to build a system like this before. Rumor has it that ventilation pipes even imploded during a test.

That's not all. Signs of poor planning and poor execution seem to be everywhere. Pipes for a central water cooling system for IT and other electronics were supposedly embedded directly into concrete walls instead of into shafts and the system was known to have too little capacity before the building was supposed to open. One escalator turned out to be too short when delivered. Instead of fixing the escalator, they extended it by adding regular stairs to the end. The contents of cable shafts in the building is completely unknown. Nobody knows anymore. New cables are thrown in randomly to suit current needs. Some shafts seem to have already filled up completely because of that.

The management of the construction site has also been a complete disaster. I don't recall how many tech leads had to go because of allegations of corruption, for example.

These are just the worst issues that I remeber. The smoke ventilation was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by willyt on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @08:12AM (#21523600)
Have a look at this [0] as an example airport where there are no ducts or fans at high level. The skylights are probably automatically controlled to vent smoke using stack effect only and the undulating roof will act as a smoke reservoir to contain smoke in one structural bay.

>The smoke ventilation system was originally designed to rely on fans to blow the smoke downwards in the ventilation shafts. As far as I know, nobody had tried to build a system like this before. Rumor has it that ventilation pipes even imploded during a test.

Well I do know of places where this has been done. It's not as failsafe as having a duct which relies on the stack effect but you have additional fans and redundant power supplies etc to make sure the system does not fail. Also the fans suck air through the system to the smoke extract outlet point as you want the pressure inside the duct to be lower than inside the building otherwise you risk blowing smoke into other parts of the building. Ducts imploding sounds like a problem with smoke dampers not activating correctly. Confusion about which dampers should be operating would be caused by a big last minute change to the layout of the spaces inside the building, which brings me back to wondering if it was because they introduced a lot more shopping area where there was none before because this is a classic last minute change in airport design that has caused problems with other airports. Big changes to space utilisation are going to cause delays and budget overruns once you have got passed the concept sketch stage.

> One escalator turned out to be too short when delivered. Instead of fixing the escalator, they extended it by adding regular stairs to the end.

Would be a major and obvious crowd safety problem and a contravention of regulations in many countries, I am assuming this would also be the case in a well regulated country like Germany. Which is why I find it hard to believe that this would be installed, rather than sent back to the factory and extended.

It's a question of managing expectations, every building is a prototype and loads of things go wrong all the time. I have heard of all the problems you describe happening on other projects for both public and private sector clients, they were just fixed and everything carried on. What you are describing has details that don't sound technically correct, so it seems like there is someone out there running a smear campaign to deflect blame from whoever made the big change to the brief, which makes me curious to know what the truth is.

For government clients airports are adverts for cities and a symbol of municipal pride so they like something that is spectacular, but private sector clients want a shopping mall with passengers winding through intestine like corridors full of shops on their way to the airplanes parked outside. Changing from one model to the other halfway through is not going to be a smooth process.

A major brief change or an unclear starting brief is what causes building (and software) projects to go late and over budget, not lots of little things like what you are describing.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolfo_Suárez_Madrid–Barajas_A...

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by gmueckl on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:18PM (#21527444)
I don't recall a single big change to the brief before the planned opening that failed so spectacularly. The project suffers death from a thousand papercuts. The brief did change since 2012, though. They added a whole new wing to the building to meet updated capacity demands.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by robert_foss on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:49AM (#21522481)
The BER airport was originally meant to be a HUB airport even though no airline wanted to place a hub operation there. AirBerlin was thought of as a good candidate, but that airline no longer exists.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by mariorossi666 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:24AM (#21522951)
> Meaning that it would have been faster to tear the entire building down and rebuild it from scratch than it is taking to remedy the issues?

This sentence is never true.

It's not true in software it's even less so in construction.

The issues would have been there even if the construction was done perfectly, you always fix such massive infrastructure for their whole lifetime (it's not simply a building!)

This time they fucked up and the airport didn't pass the safety checks necessary to open it, but there is constant fixing and changing and upgrading and scaling in an airport facility.

Tearing down it and rebuilding it it's never an option and never a good idea, unless the structure is severely damaged or contaminated (e.g. asbestos)

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by pteredactyl on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @11:33PM (#21521205)
Inept State/Corporate entities who hire based on immutable characteristics of an individual rather than their actual ability to complete given task.

Corrupt State/Corporate entities who'd rather have money in their private bank than complete given task for public good.

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by freeflight on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:07PM (#21520136)
That's what happens when political corruption becomes a culture, while nobody wants to seriously talk about it.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by _pmf_ on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:55AM (#21522216)
Politicians take turns taking lucrative positions within the project companies, "to help".
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by perlgeek on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:55AM (#21522507)
In addition to the excellent replies so far, there's a compounding problem: The long delay means that new safety regulations for new buildings apply, and so they have to iterate again.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by advancingu on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:06PM (#21527307)
There is a fantastic English language podcast called "How To F#€k Up An Airport" that goes into great detail about the many failures that let to this debacle. Highly recommended.

http://www.radiospaetkauf.com/ber/

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by _pmf_ on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:52AM (#21522198)
> How does that happen‽

Berlin is a massive clusterfuck of corruption.

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by m_fayer on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:43AM (#21522715)
Lived here 10 years, can verify. You feel it even if you're not in the know. It's like NYC in the early 80s, but now mixed with a startup scene.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by PavlovsCat on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:27AM (#21522050)
Well, it's not just years, every day of that means money that gets shifted. I couldn't find the article I read years ago about one of the companies involved, and their string of similar projects in other countries, but here's something to give you an idea how much this thing reeks: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36185194

When I read "embarrassingly poor planning" and similar phrases in articles about it, I have to think of someone who "clumsily" spills coffee on the dress of Marilyn Monroe, for lack of a better image, and then "embarrassingly" ends up with his head planted on her chest, because he "stumbled" while "hastily trying to make up for the mistake with a handkerchief". Sure, that's one way to put it. But beyond all the plausible deniability, someone is benefitting, one way or another.

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by myspy on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:24AM (#21522634)
I read that it's mainly a software problem, which would make sense why the delay is so long. Building and fixing problems with the building are done faster than fixing the software to manage that airport.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by ptaipale on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:33AM (#21522991)
No, it's not mainly a software problem. As is common in big delays, there are multiple issues, but a fairly big contributor was political arrogance that wanted to brush away fire regulations. That didn't work.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by robertkrahn01 on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @06:33PM (#21519427)
Nah, BER will actually be turned into the Tesla factory. This way they can at least stop spending millions just to keep the lights on.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by notJim on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:06PM (#21519645)
It's true, they both hemorrhage money, but at least with Tesla they also produce electric cars.

(Tesla fans: relax.)

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by pbreit on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:56AM (#21521475)
Might be getting downvoted since Tesla generated $2b in cash flow past 12m months and has all time high cash on hand. And then the "relax" insult despite being dead wrong.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by CathedralBorrow on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:08AM (#21522568)
I see Tesla fans emulate Elon's thin skin; how on earth is "relax" an insult?
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by notJim on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:35PM (#21518966)
Placing it near that airport may be the biggest risk Musk has ever taken.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by freeflight on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @08:12PM (#21520191)
It's not open yet, there's a chance it will never open.

Might even be an investment opportunity: Swoop in and buy the whole mess once the German government decides it has thrown enough money into their bottomless pit.

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by raphman on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @06:07AM (#21522857)
That's not entirely correct. Sure, the passenger terminals are a big mess and it is not yet clear when they will open.

However, the cargo terminal has been in operation since 2013 [1].

[1] https://www.berlin-airport.de/en/business-partners/airlines-...

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by zaarn on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:13AM (#21521547)
The government will likely never do that, it's a prestige project so it will completed unless the entire government collapses.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by freeflight on Thursday November 14, 2019 @02:58AM (#21533632)
> unless the entire government collapses

Well, at this point that seems more likely than that airport ever finishing.

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by john_minsk on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @01:44AM (#21521670)
And transform it into rocket launchpad: - fast parts delivery from China on BFR - competition for EU launchers etc.

{joke}

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by pbreit on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @12:56AM (#21521479)
Why is that?
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by ptaipale on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @10:41AM (#21525311)
Der Postillon:

Musk: "We chose Berlin as the location because it has the only CO2-free airport in the world"

https://www.der-postillon.com/2019/11/tesla-ber.html

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by NGC404 on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:56PM (#21519153)
I bet elon will not be able to land in BER for the celebation of the millionth car rolled out there.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by jayalpha on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:28PM (#21519840)
You will win this bet since zero cars are produced there.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by jayalpha on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:27PM (#21519833)
Best place to store the Boeing 737 MAX airplanes.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by perlgeek on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @04:58AM (#21522523)
Can't; they're storing all the unsold VW cars there: https://www.dw.com/en/vw-finds-a-use-for-berlins-unfinished-...
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by alexis_fr on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @03:05AM (#21521961)
If you start this, it risks becoming Ground Zero of idiocracy.
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by dmix on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @07:25PM (#21519819)
For anyone confused like me they mean the airport https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport?w...
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by baud147258 on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @07:46AM (#21523413)
I first though of BER encoding and I was like 'What jokes and what's the relationship with Tesla'
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by xky on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @05:32AM (#21522665)
This provides a decent and entertaining overview of why the Berlin airport has still not been completed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll58ZrIupKA

Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by wbillingsley on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:28PM (#21518901)
Get in quick, there's only 49 days left of BER months this year!
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by PopeDotNinja on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @05:26PM (#21518884)
I loved flying in and out your new airport!
Re:Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin by odiroot on Wednesday November 13, 2019 @02:25AM (#21521809)
Hey, there's always Stuttgart 21 and Elbphilharmonie!