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Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by Ajedi32 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:28AM (#21463464)
> For instance, if you’re a journalist and you want to promote your work, there is simply no viable alternative to Twitter at the moment. No other microblogging platform comes even close to having the number of users Twitter does, and most of the alternatives are hotbeds of extremism, so that anyone who joins them is thereby disqualified in polite company.

IMO if you can't even try to use an alternative microblogging platform for fear of being labeled an extremist by "polite company", that's indicative of a much more serious societal issue.

The quote included in this article from John Stuart Mill's On Liberty explains the danger rather eloquently I think:

> Society can and does execute its own mandates: and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by danso on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:48AM (#21463679)
What right do journalists have to have a platform for promotion and advertising? Either before or after the Internet and Twitter.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by forgottenpass on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:56AM (#21463758)
We're not talking about inalienable rights. That's implied in the title of the linked post.

If you don't care about "good"/"bad" decisions and just care about the legal bounds, just say so and dismiss the article out of hand. Your roundabout question just drags discussion down.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by throwafkdl on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:23AM (#21464057)
The thing is, people rightfully are pointing out an important issue ("corporate tech giants have monopolized the public speaking space and are holding unaccountable power") and but inexplicably ignore the obvious solution (break them up and/or emigrate to federated/decentralized platforms while actively promoting them) in favor of the worst possible one (force Twitter to unban nazis).
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by danso on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:12PM (#21464570)
Yes, this is essentially my point, except stated in a much more concise way than I was able to. The author wants something we all want – less power for massive private companies to control our society. But he doesn't want to accept what that takes – greater government control. So his essay is little more than inane rhetoric, e.g. journalists are basically silenced if they can't be on Twitter.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by hackinthebochs on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:48AM (#21464287)
How does breaking them up not kick the can down the road? Presumably the forces that led to the monopoly of users will be in play after they're broken up. Enforcing freedom of speech on platforms that have become de facto utilities or public spaces is the only permanent solution on offer.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by danso on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:08PM (#21464517)
The title and content of the post implies that we should regard private censorship with the same concern as we do government censorship, regardless of the current legal framework. Which I don't necessarily disagree with. In fact, I think most people here are on the same page of: it sucks big time when a company like Facebook can unilaterally decide that the famous Napalm Girl photo should not be displayed.

So where's the argument? Where's the discussion? Forgive me, but I don't find the above assertion interesting to discuss when virtually everyone agrees with it. The actual topic of interest is: how can we prevent Facebook from making such decisions over its own platform?

That's a pretty big question with a lot of angles. So I chose, for the sake of argument, to focus on what the parent commenter highlighted, because its specious premise raises issues with the author's overall premise:

> For instance, if you’re a journalist and you want to promote your work, there is simply no viable alternative to Twitter at the moment. No other microblogging platform comes even close to having the number of users Twitter does, and most of the alternatives are hotbeds of extremism, so that anyone who joins them is thereby disqualified in polite company.

In the history of our society there has never been free or equal channels of promotion, i.e. advertising or being featured in mainstream media. It has always been the case that if you didn't pay, or otherwise get noticed by mainstream media, you were unheard and/or considered to be part of a "hotbed of extremism".

So I ask of the author (and those who agree with him), if you want to argue that Facebook/Twitter should be compelled to not censor, then what sense does it make to assert people (journalists are not) have a right (legal or moral) to have their self-promotion be noticed, when that precedent does not exist? Moreover, it's just a flawed premise because I can think of journalists big (e.g. at the NYT) and small (e.g. former students of mine) who have paid careers in journalism without being active on Twitter. I contend that this is not just quibbling over minor facts, but an example of how the author's argument only makes sense by ignoring details of how the world actually works.

What does this one point have to do with the article's overall premise? He wants our society to change in a significant way, but he neither accepts the legal consequences that would follow, nor proposes an alternative framework that would be feasible. I don't disagree with that Big Tech Censorship is of huge concern. But I believe that if we want to change this status quo, we'd have to agree to give the government greater powers to regulate private industry and wealth individuals. The author doesn't want to grant this, rendering this entire discussion to be an inane impotent exercise.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by jacquesm on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:13PM (#21464578)
Ostensibly that's the argument. But the real argument is that platforms are wising up to being used for extremist positions and that the extremists don't like it and so they twist everything to associated themselves with content that should get a pass.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:57AM (#21463771)
it's a combination of the right to free expression and free association, not just for journalists, but for everyone. I should not be prevented from hearing things i might be interested to hear, or from hearing things from people i 've chosen to associate with because someone 3rd party thinks they re not nice.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by roywiggins on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:01AM (#21463824)
If I run a website, why doesn't my free association right extend to kicking people off it?
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:06AM (#21463867)
you are absolutely free to - but in that case you should be held to the same legal standards as newspapers who edit their content.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by akersten on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:20AM (#21464020)
No, that's patently ridiculous. The internet is a new medium; things scale so vastly differently here. Your proposal is literally impossible to enforce at the scale of major platforms. To force everyone to choose between "hands off, no moderation" and "you are responsible for all content" is a thinly veiled attempt to force the big players to not moderate, and therefore host extremist content - because they literally can't review everything.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:42AM (#21464242)
I actually tend to agree that it s a bad solution (its discussed in a subthread here) but i like to entertain all options. The real cause is the lack of competition for the few major platforms. I wish G+ had taken off.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by roywiggins on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:32AM (#21464154)
So the choice is between "host ISIS decapitation videos" and "be charged with a crime when a user makes a true threat using your service."

You're proposing something that will kill the literal forum that you're posting it on.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by danso on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:34PM (#21464816)
What legal standards are you referring to? Newspapers and media are not held to additional obligations than what a normal person has – e.g. it's illegal for anyone to commit slander, or violate obscenity laws. The fact that a publisher can be held liable for publishing illegal content is not what gives them the "right" to edit and censor their own publication.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by root_axis on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:18PM (#21464627)
Why? A newspaper is composed almost entirely of content that the paper is paying journalists and writers to produce whereas a social media site is almost entirely composed of content posted by individuals, how does it make any sense that a platform becomes a newspaper because they ban some content from being posted on their platform?
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by roywiggins on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:32PM (#21464785)
Newspapers aren't held responsible for the stuff people post on their comment sections either. Otherwise they'd have long since been sued into the ground, considering the sheer amount of bile exercised in said comment sections.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by gorgoiler on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:23AM (#21464055)
None, until we concede that — because the world in which we want to live includes quality writing from a free press engaged in investigative journalism — it is required that journalists be able to promote themselves somehow.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by danso on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:25PM (#21464714)
I don't disagree, and I think that's an ideal virtually everyone agrees with. But an ideal alone cannot be the premise for asserting an enforceable change to the status quo.

The reason why the Founders – and subsequently, the courts – enshrined freedom of speech from government censorship, is because that is the most the government can enforce without violating other limitations and stipulations of the Constitution. It's not as if the Founders completely forgot to consider "Hey wouldn't it be nice if everyone had a right to be heard in our society?"

If the author wants this ideal to become reality, then he needs to accept giving greater power to the government (or propose a completely different paradigm). The fact that he apparently can't – possibly because he recognizes that increased powers would end up undermining freedom of speech – is the reason why things are as they are right now.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by driverdan on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:12AM (#21463925)
> IMO if you can't even try to use an alternative microblogging platform for fear of being labeled an extremist by "polite company"

I downvoted you because this is a ridiculous claim. If you use a platform like Gab that embraces bigots and extremists perhaps, but that's not the only other platform.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by ralusek on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:56AM (#21464382)
Does Gab embrace bigots, or simply not remove any legally permissible content? I was under the impression that it was the latter. If it's the only place where unsavory content is not removed, then of course that stuff will be over-represented.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by moosingin3space on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @04:18PM (#21467431)
Uhh, they do embrace bigotry. The official Gab twitter feed has posted openly bigoted comments, not just quoted from their site.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by HeroOfAges on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:39PM (#21464865)
I do not consider the claim in the grandparent comment ridiculous, but I would consider your claim ridiculous. As a sibling comment pointed out, Gab does NOT embrace bigots and extremists, it simply does not remove legally allowed content. Can you truly not see the difference?

Edited to clarify my opinion that only one of these two claims is ridiculous

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by woander on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:28PM (#21470144)
Gab doesn't "embrace" bigots and extremists, they just embrace free speech.

You have to realize that most things can be viewed as bigotry and extremism. Look at how feminism and lgbt are viewed around the world - as extremism. Would you say twitter "embraces" bigotry and extremism because they allow feminism and lgbt on their platform?

It's a question about monopoly and fairness and the cultural values of america. Free speech is both a legal and a cultural concept.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by t-writescode on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:22AM (#21464041)
What if a video producer uses PornHub because YouTube keeps demonetizing them for, for example, gun reviews?
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by driverdan on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:22AM (#21464050)
What's wrong with PornHub?
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by t-writescode on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:10PM (#21464542)
I would consider it far from ‘polite company’.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:17AM (#21463980)
i do have a colleague that would be shocked if i created a gab account.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by driverdan on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:22AM (#21464043)
As I said, Gab is an exception since they embrace the worst of humanity.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @03:53PM (#21467121)
well at least his fundraising ability is unparalleled
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:28PM (#21468723)
sorry , wrong thread
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by swebs on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:17AM (#21463981)
What are some other platforms?
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by MrEldritch on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:20AM (#21464014)
Mastodon comes to mind.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by chipsa on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @12:31PM (#21464772)
Gab apparently runs on Mastodon now.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by throwafkdl on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:20AM (#21464019)
Mastodon.