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Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by alkonaut on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:45PM (#21446314)
If a party did that in a country where voters respond appropriately to this kind of thing, that political party would be wiped out for a generation.

If a party manages to dupe people into thinking their populist cause is important enough to see past the use of troll factories for message control, then that I think says a lot about the health of a democracy. I can imagine this happening in Poland, Hungary or perhaps even Italy, but not in that many places in the EU apart from those.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by ajuc on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:28PM (#21447290)
In case of Poland the party increased social spending several times, paying people with 2 kids half the median salary every month and lowering retirement age.

They could go on TV saying "we are corrupt and we are stealing from you" and they would still win these elections just because they paid for the votes. That's how populism works.

Frankly I'm amazed they managed to lose the Senate and only won the Sejm (lower house - more important in Poland).

> I can imagine this happening in Poland, Hungary or perhaps even Italy, but not in that many places in the EU apart from those.

May I remind you Trump is the president of USA (and his lawyer is arguing he could murder someone on the street and would still be free to go) and UK voted for Brexit? Social networks and troll farms played a big role in both events.

This is how democracy works now... It's like in 20s-30s last century - radio was invented and democracy wasn't ready for it - and when crisis came the result was totalitarianisms.

Now democracy wasn't ready for internet and after crisis came the result is resurgence of populism.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by Mirioron on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @12:31AM (#21449908)
I initially wrote a comment about how the idea of troll farms and misinformation campaigns is very old. Mark Antony and Octavian engaged in such campaigns against one another after Caesar's death. I was essentially thinking that we've dealt with them, just at a smaller scale. Somehow I missed the irony that Octavian literally ended the Roman Republic. I suppose the downfall started with Caesar though.

I really do wonder what can be done about the misinformation problem. It doesn't seem like educating the populace is a very effective solution, because even educated people fall for it.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by vijayr02 on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @05:36AM (#21451191)
History buff input here:

Arguably the downfall started with Sulla [0]:

> Sulla's military coup—ironically enabled by Marius' military reforms that bound the army's loyalty with the general rather than to the Republic—permanently destabilized the Roman power structure. Later leaders like Julius Caesar would follow his precedent in attaining political power through force.

A far cry from the traditional virtue embodied by Cincinnatus [1]:

> He came from his plow to assume complete control over the state but, upon achieving a swift victory, relinquished his power and its perquisites and returned to his farm. His success and immediate resignation of his near-absolute authority with the end of this crisis (traditionally dated to 458 BC) has often been cited as an example of outstanding leadership, service to the greater good, civic virtue, humility, and modesty.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulla

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Quinctius_Cincinnatus

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by Mirioron on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @01:26PM (#21455145)
Thank you for enlightening me further!
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by raxxorrax on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @05:00AM (#21451043)
Dismissing opinions because they are allegedly victims of trolls is a far greater problem in my perspective.
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by madaxe_again on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @07:08AM (#21451626)
I visited an extraordinarily polluted steelworks city a few years ago. Even on a clear day, the air was orange, and as you entered the city you noticed the colour wash out of everything slightly, and the horizon over the estuary blurred out to a drab orange smear.

I mention this, as when I mentioned it to the locals, none of them understood what I was talking about.

You see, when your entire reality glows orange, that becomes normal to you. You cease to notice that everything is orange. You even vehemently disagree with anyone who’s just arrived and asks “why is everything around here orange?”.

This is how propaganda works. Degree by degree everything turns orange, and unless you get out of it once in a while, you never notice.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by jacquesm on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @08:01AM (#21451951)
That is one reason why I'd like the media to recognize the part they themselves play in all this. Just by repeating the words of the demagogues for critical reasons they still give them another platform.

For example:

'Today Trump repeated a debunked hoax as though it were true'

is one thing, to say

'Today Trump said "The FBI didn’t take Hillary Clinton's email server. It was taken by somebody that, I guess, it’s CrowdStrike — that’s what I’ve heard.", which has been debunked long ago'.

Is another. The second may be more sexy and may draw more eyeballs and therefore ad impressions but it still gives Trump a platform for his BS and plenty of people will believe the president over some reporter saying that this was already debunked as an afterthought.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by shostack on Sunday November 10, 2019 @04:08PM (#21500220)
I'm curious to see how deep the media rabbit hole goes with this though given what we're learning about Hannity's involvement.
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by raxxorrax on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @07:28AM (#21451750)
Agreed. We just would need to figure out who is standing in the clouds.
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by madaxe_again on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @09:33AM (#21452660)
We all are. Our entire human world comprises overlapping subjective realities built by group consensus. What is true and rational to me is anathema to another, and the inverse applies. From cradle to grave our realities are sculpted by our experiences and those surrounding us. Recognising this is the first step to understanding an awful lot of why people think and do what they do.
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by jacquesm on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @07:52AM (#21451894)
> radio was invented and democracy wasn't ready for it

I never for a second made that connection, thank you very much.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by sah2ed on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @03:44AM (#21450705)
> It's like in 20s-30s last century - radio was invented and democracy wasn't ready for it - and when crisis came the result was totalitarianisms.

Interesting. Can you suggest additional reading on this?

Thanks!

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by ajuc on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @05:03AM (#21451055)
> Recognising the importance of radio in disseminating the Nazi message, Goebbels approved a scheme whereby millions of cheap radio sets (the Volksempfänger) were subsidised by the government. In the "Radio as the Eighth Great Power"[114] speech, Goebbels proclaimed:

> It would not have been possible for us to take power or to use it in the ways we have without the radio....It is no exaggeration to say that the German revolution, at least in the form it took, would have been impossible without the airplane and the radio. ...[Radio] reached the entire nation, regardless of class, standing, or religion. That was primarily the result of the tight centralization, the strong reporting, and the up-to-date nature of the German radio....Above all it is necessary to clearly centralize all radio activities, to place spiritual tasks ahead of technical ones,...to provide a clear worldview,

> By the start of the Second World War, over 70% of German households had one of these radios, which were deliberately limited in range in order to prevent loyal citizens from considering other viewpoints in foreign broadcasts.[113] Radio broadcasts were also played over loudspeakers in public places and workplaces.[113]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_in_Nazi_Germany

> During the democratic period, when the Weimar government introduced progovernment political news, the growth of Nazi popularity slowed down in areas with access to radio. This effect was reversed during the campaign for the last competitive election as a result of the pro-Nazi radio broadcast following Hitler’s appointment as chancellor. During the consolidation of dictatorship, radio propaganda helped the Nazis enroll new party members. After the Nazis established their rule, radio propaganda incited anti-Semitic acts and denunciations of Jews to authorities by ordinary citizens. The effect of anti-Semitic propaganda varied depending on the listeners’ predispositions toward the message. Nazi radio was most effective in places where anti-Semitism was historically high and had a negative effect in places with historically low anti-Semitism

https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abstract/130/4/1885/191...

Remember that before radio the best you could get was newspapers and leaflets, and both were mostly ignoring the lower strata of society. In religious regions you could also make a deal with the church I guess, it was the only information network that reached masses regularly.

People in countryside don't get leaflets. Poor people don't spend on newspapers. Radio was "free newspaper everyday", and Nazis gave the radios for free.

Also when you buy a newspaper you presumably already agree with its message at least a little, so it's hard to make people change their minds with newspapers. When you buy a radio you get all the stations, so you can be persuaded by them to change your mind over time.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by madaxe_again on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @07:21AM (#21451700)
Newspapers were dynamite in their time. Before moveable type, printing anything was expensive and time consuming. It was typically done only by governments and the very wealthy. They controlled the message.

Then, along comes the ability to move type, and re-use your castings. Luther prises the faultlines in religion wide open with handbills. The English and the French end up having revolutions, promulgated by samizdat handbills disseminated throughout society. The abolitionist movement promote their cause through the same, and American dissenters publish their ideas to a malleable audience with cheap ease, resulting in another revolution.

Arguably, the last gasp of newspapers as the primary medium of movement was the First World War - and then radio took the helm, then television, and now, the internet.

It’s not so much that we’re unready for these media so much as we never will be. We receive subjective realities willingly - it’s how we form social bonds. All that changes is the accessibility of broadcast through the medium, and radio and tv were machines for centralised messaging, whereas the printing press and internet have allowed dissenting voices to once more gain a foothold in the minds of many.

If we follow pattern, we are in for a rough ride, but perhaps a better state of affairs at the end of it.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by jacquesm on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @08:02AM (#21451958)
May you live in interesting times is generally not considered to be a blessing.
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by raxxorrax on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @04:15AM (#21450858)
People attesting this are mostly totalitarians themselves. People tend to find out about the patronism and pick their own favorite totalitarian in a most reactionary manner. I doubt there is any further and deeper insight.
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by haecceity on Friday November 08, 2019 @11:02PM (#21489505)
How do they afford it?
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by skocznymroczny on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @02:26AM (#21450395)
> That's how populism works.

That's how socialism works. You take some money from people, give half of it back to them and they cheer you for it.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by anigbrowl on Monday November 04, 2019 @07:43PM (#21448458)
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by jellicle on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:15PM (#21447141)
I would guess that as of 2019 there is no political party of any size in the western world not using such services. If they have an annual revenue of $1,000,000, they're doing it.

Many of them will be doing it through a PR firm to maintain deniability in the event of disclosure. But each and every party is doing it.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by yeahforsureman on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:41PM (#21447438)
No way. Sadly, the sole existence of troll farms is enough to create and reinforce political paranoia. Your message (parent) here, for example, is exactly the kind of stuff I've come to associate with Russian and similar trolling (sowing distrust in institutions etc.)...
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by 9HZZRfNlpR on Monday November 04, 2019 @06:57PM (#21448129)
But you have to be extremely naive to not believe it. Work somewhere near marketing and you realize everything is shilled upon you. The politicians have used these tricks hundreds of years ago, things are just different with a new platform.

Have you thought about the idea that you yourself are a victim of a marketing department if you believe every criticism is related to Russian campaigns?

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by erikpukinskis on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:18PM (#21469789)
> if you believe every criticism is related to Russian campaigns.

That’s not the claim, and you hyperbolizing that way is a classic technique for muddying the waters.

> everything is shilled on you

That’s simply not true. There are many shills, but not everyone is a shill.

There is a difference between responsible marketing and lying. Every institution has to choose which they engage in.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by Thorrez on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @12:47AM (#21449989)
Wouldn't people leak out information about it just like this journalist did?
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by Retric on Monday November 04, 2019 @08:41PM (#21448814)
Paid for troll farms are waste of money when the general public already agrees with the party. Thus, many parties have no reason to do this when members of the general public are willing to do it for free.
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by baq on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @01:40AM (#21450231)
Troll farms are polarizing: parties hire them to pretend to be two extreme sides to spread FUD.
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by anigbrowl on Monday November 04, 2019 @07:44PM (#21448470)
I think Jellicle is correct to some degree, which is not to say 'they're all the same'.
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by jacquesm on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @08:23AM (#21452107)
I would very much doubt that. Though I'm sure the extremists wouldn't care how they won an election the main incumbents would be afraid that if it leaked they would be clobbered at the ballot box. If you don't give a damn about your reputation you tend to have more options than if you do.
Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by Roark66 on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @02:04AM (#21450316)
Yes, it would work in a country that has viable opposition. In Poland we have a choice between: party 1-Used to be in power for 8 years, has lots of huge scandals to its name including closing their eyes to billions of VAT fraud. Unjustified repossessions of homes based on made up documents for tens of thousands of people. Right on stealing of people's retirement funds they said they wouldnt touch. Raising of retirement age when they campaigned on keeping it same and changing the retirement system instead. Raising taxes immediately after gaining power despite campaigning on a platform of lowering them to so called 3x15%. This party instantly started talking about a "crisis of democracy" the moment they lost the election. Before they went they managed to attempt to unlawfully replace 3 of the high Court judges. This proved to be a great trap for newcomers which then proceeded in exact same manner with regard to high court. Party 2 - Ex communists plus "new left". Ex communists were always known as homophobes, "old boys club", but they are on the left so new left that pushes values like tolerance etc aligned themselves with those old bastards which makes them loose all credibility in my eyes. - Party 3- a super nationalist party started by a guy who used to be a free market libertarian most of his life and gained fame by using a live elephant, and a South American style "el presidente" suit as main items during his campaign. In other news the guy is a known shovinist and was stabbed in the gut by his own daughter. Allegedly 20% of young people support that clown. Party 5 - A small party that tries to pass itself as farmers party but in reality exists to further interests of few large landowners.

Now in addition to the above we have the currently ruling party that is correctly characterised as being way too religious even going as far as equating Catholicism with being Polish in some of their talks, being stupid in their attempts to reform the openly corrupt justice system causing correct accusations of breaking the law. At the same time they proven not to be corruptible by sorting out the tax system to the effect of increasing the budget almost by half (it turns out we had massive Vat fraud previous guys knew and did absolutely minimum about and half of small businesses were cheating at taxes). The currently ruling party implemented a system where if you "forget" about a vat invoice it'll text you about it making people much more honest about paying. Additionally, the ruling party is the only political force ever in Poland that actually implemented all of their campaign promises. Many people like myself don't like the religiousness, but value that those the only people that went into politics to actually implement their campaign promises. This is completely unheard of in Poland. As a result of the lack of open thievery the previous guys were engaging in and their social programs which increase the amount of money in hands of previously poor people the economy is much better. The unemployment is non existent in big cities etc.

The bottom line is, who would you vote for: A dishonest person)(a known thief and conman) who tells you what you want to hear, or honest people you disagree with on some principles? That's why the ruling party won its second election. Not because it is great, but because they are seen as the only force that is non-corrupt(or at least less corrupt) and fulfilling its promises.

The opposition are either dishonest, incompetent or a joke depending on who you look at. I really wish there is time we have honest opposition in Poland. Maybe the new left once they drop the ex-communists will become that for the next election. We'll see.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by ajuc on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @10:23AM (#21453128)
> At the same time they proven not to be corruptible by sorting out the tax system to the effect of increasing the budget almost by half

There is currently huge affair in Ministry of Finances because they were covering tax frauds and even doing them themselves :) https://www.money.pl/podatki/afera-w-resorcie-finansow-szefa...

There was also a corruption scandal with KNF chief Chrzanowski nominated by PIS. https://www.newsweek.pl/szef-knf-oskarzony-o-korupcje-rezygn...

And the tax fraud by chief of controlling agency (NIK) Banaś - also nominated recently by PIS. https://www.tvn24.pl/wiadomosci-z-kraju,3/afera-prezesa-nik-...

Of course nobody cares because social money flow :)

As for the "increase of budget" - mostly it comes from changes in the system already introduced by the previous government but with vacation legis (like electronic reporting for microcompanies - JPK). And of course PIS has the luck to rule during a worldwide economic boom.

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by Roark66 on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @10:55AM (#21453456)
I should've written "mostly" not corruptible. Still the level of corruption discovered pales in comparison with the previous guys.

As for the previous guys bringing up microreporting.... please, that is such a worn out excuse. They were in power for 8 years and they actually managed to start serious work on that particular solution half a year before they left office, becuase they knew they absolutely have to. How is that not doing absolute minimum they can get away with? Have you seen the answer the back then minister of finance gave when he was asked a question what did he do when he was informed there are likely billions of VAT refunds beign scammed out of the system? His answer was "I don't remember".

Also tell Germans, China and many other countries about that worldwide economic boom we've been experiencing for last 4 years :-)

I'm no fan of PiS. In fact I voted for their rivals 12 years ago because I did believe their promises of 3x15%, low taxes etc. I still remember many scandals that are forgotten today. For example billions spent on motorways built by the state and then given to companies owned by "friends" for 50 year lease so they could make profits by charging drivers whatever they want for using infrastructure funded by people's own taxes. But my biggest dissapointment with them was not even thievery as it can perhaps be explained that not everyone was a theif etc, but the fact they didn't implement a single one of their promises. They did nothing about rotten to the core bureaucracies of the tax offices, national insurance (ZUS) and tried to privatise the health service through the back door. It is no simple task to resolve this. Even though PiS has very little sucess in those areas, at least they are talking about this and are seen as trying with their "Constitution for Business" that is the only law (other than the actual constitution) that states tax man is supposed to use presumption of innocence not presumtion of guilt as it is done usually and actually treat people fairly in their dealings with the tax offices.

It is true that many people vote for PiS because of new social programs. However, there are many people that vote for them because there is no other viable choice. Sometimes the least bad is the only option.

Anyway, as George Bush famously said: "Full me once, shame on you, full me tw-you can't get fooled again!" :-)

Re:Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm by ajuc on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @11:13AM (#21453662)
Show me even 1 corruption scandal from 8 years of the previous government the level of the 3 I posted above. The most I could find is Nowak forgot to include a watch in his property statement (oświadczenie majątkowe). He got fired.

Meanwhile Szyszko "forgot" to include land and a house in Mazury lake resort worth hundreds of thousands of PLN and nothing :)

> They were in power for 8 years and they actually managed to start serious work on that particular solution half a year before they left office, becuase they knew they absolutely have to.

That's one interpretation. Another is - when you don't have single majority and have to coordinate with your coallition partners stuff takes more time. When you actually ask people and do all the proper processes - legislation takes time.

On the other hand you can do it like PIS does - change law in 1 night without any review, and then it turns out it contains logical errors, duplicated articles, and have to be fixed 9 times (like the law about KRS was :) ).

I much prefer slow and steady to fast and chaotic. Law is in may respects like code, and PIS is doing spaghetti code.