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Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by landryraccoon on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:58AM (#21410159)
I'm sorry, I don't follow.

If a group wants to post on social media, they can just post on social media. Ads increase the reach of those with money. That is exactly what they do and nothing more. Why would we want to further amplify the voice of those who have money? The fact that the cause is the abolition of X or the support of Y is a non sequitur, in either case it is the viewpoint of someone with the money to promote their voice.

I have very little concern that the opinions of those with large quantities of money at their disposal are underrepresented in politics, or do not have the ability to make their voices heard.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:31PM (#21411367)
> The fact that the cause is the abolition of X or the support of Y is a non sequitur, in either case it is the viewpoint of someone with the money to promote their voice.

What you're missing is that all viewpoints you'll ever see are intrinsically those of someone with the money to promote their voice.

Suppose you have an idea in your head and you want to get it out there. The first thing you have to do is express that idea. Write it down or create a video etc. That takes time, which is an opportunity cost. If it takes you an hour, that's an hour you couldn't spend working for money, which means that somebody who has to spend that time working for money doesn't have the time to express their idea.

On top of that, the more time you spend polishing your expression, the more convincing you can make it, so right off the bat there is a direct relationship between time/money and speech.

Then you need to get people to look at it. If all you do is write a document that sits in a drawer in your house, nobody will ever see it. So you need to spend more time distributing your idea, or get other people who are willing to spend their time distributing it.

Political advertising is just paying a third party to do that for you. It costs less than hiring a staff of people to promote the idea "organically" (otherwise it would be poor value for money and nobody would pay for it), which means it enables people with less money to get their message in front of people.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by Barrin92 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @07:53PM (#21415017)
>What you're missing is that all viewpoints you'll ever see are intrinsically those of someone with the money to promote their voice.

If I may jump in here, I live in a country where political advertisement is strictly regulated and almost all political debate takes place on public television, available to everyone, and there's a commitment to neutrality in reporting and equal representation of all parties.

Now this surely doesn't give everyone the same voice and many people are still marginalised and despite the lack of money involvement are excluded, but it may be worth pointing out that the US status quo is not the only model on this planet.

Instead of increasing the asymmetry by letting those with more money expand their influence even more, you could take measures to level the playing field.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by roenxi on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:54PM (#21415893)
Is your country of a similar size and complexity as the United States? Or are you from one of the smaller countries that is more comparable to a US city?

I can see all sorts of things working for a small country that do not scale to a large country. Something that works well in, eg, Denmark might be appropriate if applied to somewhere of comparable size and complexity like the New York city centre but in appropriate if applied to a continent.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by Barrin92 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:58PM (#21415913)
I hail from Germany. Not exactly US sized, but not a small country either.

One thing that I think would actually be easier to do in the US to achieve the same thing is to cap and publicly finance campaign spending. Given the strong emphasis on free speech that the US has it might be simpler to go the reverse route. If 'money is speech', even out the playing field on a financial basis.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by AnthonyMouse on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:37AM (#21416657)
I don't think you even need to cap it. Political spending has diminishing returns. Give candidates enough money to allow them to make their constituents aware of their positions and the competing candidate can't undo that just by outspending them.

The problem is when candidates have to take money from special interests just in order to buy enough advertising to cause anyone to have even heard of them. Provide enough public money so that candidates don't have to do that, and then candidates won't have to do that.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by thefounder on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:14AM (#21417920)
>> The problem is when candidates have to take money from special interests just in order to buy enough advertising to cause anyone to have even heard of them. Provide enough public money so that candidates don't have to do that, and then candidates won't have to do that.

You forget that there is never enough money or enough advertising. All the money comes from "special interest groups" except if is provided by the government. Of course people "hear" the candidates...it's just that the candidates want a 24/7 audience, lately they have whole media corporations delivering the message for them. As we know most of the media organisations are now partisan (either by choice or by obligation). Maybe little regulation wouldn't hurt to give a chance to the little guy who can't afford to buy a media corporation?

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by AnthonyMouse on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:13PM (#21422007)
> You forget that there is never enough money or enough advertising.

Yes there is. That's the point. Candidates regularly defeat better-funded opponents because there is a threshold of exposure past which the voters have heard what there is to hear from both candidates and more spending has diminishing returns.

> Of course people "hear" the candidates

No they don't. Can you name all of the candidates running for the Democratic nomination this year? First try to off the top of your head. Now here's a list:

https://www.politico.com/2020-election/president/democratic-...

How many of the ones you missed have less than $5M right now vs. more than that? Pretty good correlation, right? Yet I doubt your preference between Sanders vs. Biden has that much to do with which of them has more money, because they both have more than the threshold amount needed to make you aware of their positions.

> Maybe little regulation wouldn't hurt to give a chance to the little guy who can't afford to buy a media corporation?

How is it supposed to help the little guy who can't afford to buy a media corporation to pass a law restricting the little guy from buying political advertising, meanwhile the people who can afford to buy a media corporation carry on doing so as ever?

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by dantheman on Thursday October 31, 2019 @08:21PM (#21415164)
There are those that are famous, those with a lot of time, those who work in the media, those who are already politicians, those that are popular .... why are their voices and reach allowed when those with money are not?
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by Barrin92 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @08:30PM (#21415193)
you may very well make the case that mainstream news suffers from the same disease.

There's an interesting study out there (I'll dig it up later if I find it), that finds that the average American has virtually no influence or voice on what is discussed in media. There is nothing civic or egalitarian about American media or politics any more, it's no surprise that it appears like a cynical spectacle. It is indeed all advertisers, famous people, full-time twitter agitators, and Fox and CNN.

The irony here is I think that the social platforms actually could be used to authentically promote common voices if they were designed with that commitment in mind. If the rules don't change for the owners, I don't see it happening.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by pm90 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @04:04PM (#21413106)
I don't really get your point. What you're saying is that a good message takes a lot of resources to communicate effectively. That is true regardless of whether you can use social media to promote those messages.

Conversely, targeted advertisement lets you bombard people with certain inclinations with ads that nudge them to behave in a certain way. That isn't free speech, its targeted manipulation. The targeting is whats important here. For selling goods and services, its fine. For selling leaders or tarnishing leaders, its evil.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by NeedMoreTea on Thursday October 31, 2019 @05:20PM (#21413813)
After the decades learning that targeted advertising to sell goods and services comes with a dramatic tracking and data gathering overreach, I'd like to ban the lot. It's still targeted manipulation. Better to have no tracking and no targeting.

Allow opt-in targeting by allowing classified ads, old-school newspaper and Computer Shopper style. Otherwise I think it is now pretty clear the cost is too high.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by AnthonyMouse on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:03AM (#21416581)
> I don't really get your point. What you're saying is that a good message takes a lot of resources to communicate effectively. That is true regardless of whether you can use social media to promote those messages.

The point is that it costs more to promote if you can't buy advertising, which increases the advantage of those with a boatload of money. The people who own Fox News or Facebook would still get to decide what everybody sees but then someone who disagrees with them couldn't even buy advertising to air their competing ideas.

The person with zero dollars has zero voice either way. The question is whether someone with thousands of dollars should be able to get their message in front of the relevant people, or only someone with billions of dollars.

> Conversely, targeted advertisement lets you bombard people with certain inclinations with ads that nudge them to behave in a certain way. That isn't free speech, its targeted manipulation. The targeting is whats important here. For selling goods and services, its fine. For selling leaders or tarnishing leaders, its evil.

Suppose Big Oil wants to build a pipeline in your back yard. They're going to have your neighbor's house seized through eminent domain (or maybe yours), then install a big ugly pipe that will reduce your property value and forevermore be carrying flammable poisonous carcinogenic petroleum that could at any time leak out into your groundwater. You have no idea that this is in the works and won't know until it's too late unless somebody tells you about it right now.

I live a hundred miles from you along the same planned pipeline and I don't want it, so I get together all the people I can find and pool our money to buy issue ads to notify everyone in the path of the pipeline that it's going to happen if we don't get together and oppose it. We can't afford to buy nation-wide untargeted ads, but we can afford to target the people who live right near the planned pipeline and have views that make it likely they'll help us oppose it.

Is this to be prohibited in your opinion? What do you suggest those people do instead in that case?

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by EsssM7QVMehFPAs on Thursday October 31, 2019 @05:09PM (#21413740)
The Facebook shills are certainly not foreign to the influencer group that is HN if you track recent news discussions.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by texuf on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:07PM (#21410266)
Just because I’m subscribed to someone on social media doesn’t mean they show up in my feed. That change happened long ago. It’s only guaranteed to show up if they pay.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by r00fus on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:29PM (#21411356)
So Facebook - who controls your feed (and made said change) now wants to say that their right to prioritize (based on money) what stuff goes on your feed shouldn't be questioned?
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by semiotagonal on Thursday October 31, 2019 @03:04PM (#21412407)
> their right to prioritize (based on money) what stuff goes on your feed

It's not your feed, it's their feed; you're just the person eating it.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by fermenflo on Thursday October 31, 2019 @03:30PM (#21412679)
Thank you...

Everyone seems to be forgetting that this is a 100% opt-in service. Why do we get to say what FB is obligated to do and to what standards they have to keep their website at?

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by semiotagonal on Thursday October 31, 2019 @03:43PM (#21412827)
Well, when it establishes a dominant position in the market using tactics that are no longer allowed, we do get a right to say that they should be broken up, or forced to start from scratch without their user data.

My own two cents is that Facebook should be dismantled to restore competition, then be allowed to do whatever it wants.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by TooSmugToFail on Thursday October 31, 2019 @04:51PM (#21413598)
Facebook should be dismantled because they effectively broke democracy.

From the earliest of its beginnings, one of the greatest flaws of democracy was masses being susceptible to manipulation, and Facebook massively amplified this. It has been repeatedly and reliably used for manipulation of voters with unprecedented effectiveness and on an unprecedented scale.

Trump and Brexit showed that even the oldest and most mature democracies are not impervious to such manipulation.

I was shocked how Facebook's Libra initiative quickly detracted people: all of a sudden, we're all discussing whether they should be allowed to run crypto currency, and nobody is talking about how they broke democracy. Almost as if the whole Libra thing is a giant distraction...

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by core-questions on Thursday October 31, 2019 @04:13PM (#21413219)
Because Facebook occupies a nearly-monopolistic position that has somewhat replaced the public square in modern life. It's not just any other service, anymore; it's far bigger and needs to be legislated upon as such.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by philipov on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:00PM (#21415674)
Things stop being opt-in when too many people start using them. There's a point where private platforms become so big they begin to function as public platforms. At that point, not opting in becomes tantamount to becoming an off-grid prepper, or religious hermit. Participating in society is technically opt-in as well, but because it is tied into all parts of life, not opting in requires you to opt out.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by 205guy on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:01PM (#21415928)
Because that is what they advertize themselves as (connecting with people and seeing what they post), they should be held to the image they project.

The truth is they let you see most of your friends' and family's posts, but pretty much any commercial or non-profit's post is held for ransom. If you "like" a local band or want to hear from the local gardening club, they will be encouraged to pay to "boost" their posts to you.

If fb had to say "you will see the posts from your connections based on how much they pay us," up front when registering and in all their ads (like the fast-talking disclosures in US drug advertizing), then people would have a more accurate view of the service they are using. Of course, long privacy disclosures would be necessary too.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by Braggadocious on Thursday October 31, 2019 @07:23PM (#21414810)
I would argue facebook isn't a 100% opt in service at all. When political advertising on facebook won Trump the election, that changed the global landscape for everyone, regardless whether they were on facebook or not. It's like saying the automotive industry or the oil industry are a 100% opt in service, so why regulate them either? Facebook has as much of a tailpipe as any other commercial enterprise with effects felt by everyone.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by aggie on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:35PM (#21410645)
It's not going to show up in everyone's feed if you pay either. You're just talking degrees of exposure. Getting to 100% of eyeballs vs. 80% or 10% is arbitrary.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by lonelappde on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:06PM (#21411037)
Why do people with extra time get to be heard more than people with extra money? I don't have the ability to take 20% time off my work to promote my message, but I have saved up some money.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by notSupplied on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:32AM (#21416862)
One can have 1000x more money than a middle class person, but there are no "time billionaires"
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by xwowsersx on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:16PM (#21410375)
Yes, but ads with no reach effectively means you have no meaningful voice in the public discourse. So it's free speech, but without any teeth.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by aggie on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:38PM (#21410679)
Why should any individual be given outsize voice in a democracy, if not by amplification from many others?
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by whiddershins on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:53PM (#21410872)
Well I think people who put in more effort get more influence on average.

Effort can take the form of standing on the street holding a sign, and it takes money to make a sign, and time to stand there.

It can take the form of going door to door and talking to people and giving them printed materials. You need the money for the printed materials, and the time to canvass the neighborhood.

Same for running for local political office.

Same for making a documentary, or a podcast, or a YouTube channel.

Same for running a Facebook ad.

Communication takes time and money. Getting money also takes time, to earn it, to inherit it, to ask donors or investors for it...

There’s no way to have any communication at all without these elements.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by wolco on Thursday October 31, 2019 @03:19PM (#21412568)
No one is given anything you want a largerr voice join up with others.

Those with money can pay someone to tell someone else something.

Those with time can tell everyone they meet.

That's how a democracy. Some have bigger voices compared to others.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by lonelappde on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:07PM (#21411065)
Why is outsized voice reserved only for the promotion of consumerist consumption? That's the pnly political view that deserves a microphone?
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by CharlesColeman on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:15PM (#21411184)
> Yes, but ads with no reach effectively means you have no meaningful voice in the public discourse. So it's free speech, but without any teeth.

Zuck himself, ironically, has helped create that situation by deliberately reducing organic reach to force people to pay to be heard.

This is a cynical ploy for money on Zuck's/Facebook's part. If they really cared about free speech, they wouldn't hobble the organic reach of political actors.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:33PM (#21411396)
It's possible for both of those things to be true at the same time -- that they should neither deliberately restrict organic reach nor refuse political advertising on the basis of content.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by philipov on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:08PM (#21415709)
Right, they should refuse all advertising, regardless of content. They have made themselves into the largest public platform and have no business taking bribes. If they want to be a profit-generating business, they should stop being the public forum.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by newen on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:36PM (#21410653)
That's why people build movements, why activism is a thing. Money shortcuts all of that and gives undue voice to people with the most money.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by jackinloadup on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:05PM (#21411031)
By that definition people who want to voice their opinions shouldn't pay for any service which would amplify that voice. That could be a sign, megaphone, stage, internet, website, youtube channel (camera).

If I'm able to have more signs or youtube channels people will pay more attention to me and thus I'm using an advantage the other party may not have the financial ability to respond to.

I think this idea could go further but it seems obvious that money is another unbiased tool to promote your speech. Money doesn't have a political affiliation. People can use money in a biased way just like they can use a camera, tv channel, or sign to have a bias. The medium isn't biased the way it's used is.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by newen on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:52PM (#21411636)
But you are ignoring the difference in power that people have in this context. Especially in this age, when inequality is so high, it is naive to consider money to be an unbiased tool.

Especially when we already live in a massively unequal stage where a few coorporations have access to the most popular websites, magazines, newpapers, tv channels, allowing money into this equation as an unbiased tool will only increase this inequality in the ability to spread a message.

I think we as a society should make changes so that money has as little influence as possible. Of course, that battle will never end and there will be pushback from the small minority of people of have the overwhelming amount of wealth in this world, but changes such as banning political ads in twitter is a very good start.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by matz1 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @07:06PM (#21414698)
I don't think you can eliminate inequality. So you remove money, then it will simply be replaced by something else. Then there will be someone who has more of whatever it is that replaced money, thus you create different kind of inequality.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by newen on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:57AM (#21416376)
Why does there have to be some permanent solution to a problem? There is no permanent solution to crime, for example. You just have law enforcement because we as a society decided that crime is bad.

Similarly, if we decide that inequality in terms of being able to politically influence people is bad, and money exacerbates that inequality, then we can ban political ads. And if something else comes along that does the same thing, ban that too in a way that makes sense.

Having such a small number of people wield such huge political influence is a shame, but what is even worse is when people accept that as inevitable and perpetuates that myth.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by matz1 on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:48AM (#21418142)
In regards to crime, i think you are talking about reducing crime, not eliminating it.

My post was just talking about eliminating inequality. I make no claim about reducing inequality.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by newen on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:14AM (#21418349)
That's really a motte and bailey situation then, isn't it? You say that you are talking about eliminating inequality, but then you use that to argue that reducing inequality isn't possible while still allowing yourself to retreat to the eliminating inequality position when challenged.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by matz1 on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:31AM (#21418541)
I say eliminating inequality may be impossible. No where I make claim about reducing inequality.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by wolco on Thursday October 31, 2019 @03:28PM (#21412654)
Money is our best proxy for work/effect.

Removing money has been tried in places like Russia. People stop working and if they are forced will not try as hard.

Money has been part since the beginning. To vote you needed to own property which made sense because land owners paid the government in the form of taxes. Personal income taxes came after the war to pay for the war debts.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by chillacy on Thursday October 31, 2019 @03:53PM (#21412990)
I don't see the parent's post advocating for removing money entirely, rather flattening the curve or reducing the winner-take-all effect. I think most of us would be happy with not a flat curve but a more gentle gradient, instead of a hyper exponential curve.

By the way every time there's an unrestrained hyper exponential curve, it leads to civil unrest pretty quickly. A lot of terrible things come in the wake of economic hardship.

Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by aluminussoma on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:51PM (#21410842)
Is activism so pure? The activists I see have nice signs and people protesting during business hours when the rest of us are working. Printing good signs costs money. There is big money behind a lot of activists, just better hidden.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by nicpottier on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:07PM (#21411066)
Maybe at least that's creating some employment opportunities? Especially in an auction model like Facebooks we are spending millions (billions?) in a zero sum game where people bid against each other to no benefit except Facebook's.
Re:Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy ... by bobcostas55 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:57PM (#21411705)
If a group wants to write an article, they can just write an article. Newspapers increase the reach of those with money. That is exactly what they do and nothing more. Why would we want to further amplify the voice of those who have money?