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Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by shpongled on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:21AM (#21409093)
I'm in my 5th year of a chemical biology PhD and I'm looking to potentially move into computer science/data science (been programming for 15 years) after I graduate. Maybe we can just switch? I work with CRISPR for my project.

In all seriousness, you are going to need a PhD if you want to truly understand all of the background of the field. Human biology/biochemistry is just about the most complex thing humans have ever studied. It would surely be easier to just find people with the requisite skill sets.

Even if you just want to start a company, I feel that it would be really hard to pick out a scientific direction/what your company is going to do, without a rigorous scientific background

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by aaavl2821 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:13PM (#21410335)
No one can truly understand all of the background for the field. Doing so would require like 10 PhDs

It is important to have a fundamental understanding of biology and chemistry, and ability to critically evaluate data, but once you have that, its more important to be able to find people with the right domain expertise and have productive interviews with them about data. If you are a neuroscience PhD you should not be evaluating a cancer assay or a GLP tox study on your own, you should read enough to have a productive interview with someone with more expertise, then go have that interview

You need a rigorous science background to start a company but that is not sufficient. Many projects are just not fundable. For non scientists, id recommend learning how the industry works and how value is created, because that complements the expertise of scientists who know the science but dont know the right clinical applications

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by Ultimatt on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:23AM (#21409113)
+1 for this is a PhD level thing. The science and technology is not at the sort of commodity level where you do a masters and you're done really. A good approach is to just get in the face of a lot of lab people working on new tech/IP who could really use software support for what they are doing in an area of trial and error that could otherwise scale. But if you are thinking biotech with lab, you need huge seed investment to begin with for the lab, unless you are spinning out of academia.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by codingdave on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:41AM (#21409319)
> you are going to need a PhD if you want to truly understand all of the background of the field

Is that the need, though? Few SaaS CEOs truly understand all the background of computer science. They do understand the problem space, but they leave it to the experts in the organization to get into the details of applying computer science to the problem.

Is biology different, where the level of expertise needs to be at a more detailed level in order to lead an organization?

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by shpongled on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:49AM (#21409421)
The key distinction here is starting a company vs leading a company. To just walk in and lead an established company - you'd be fine with a better than average understanding, as long as you trust the experts in your company to do what is right.

To found a company? How do you know where to start? If you are hiring PhDs to come up with the idea for you, how do you if their ideas are novel or worthwhile?

Not to disparage SaaS founders, but I think it's somewhat easier to look about and say "there is no app for sending texts via REST API" and do that, than it is to look at say "no one has found a way to selectively target cancer cells for CRISPR" and then go do that.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by jayparth on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:58AM (#21409526)
I think the key distinction is that there is a well-established infrastructure around software, such that the average SaaS founder (even 10 years ago) is/was not doing fundamentally new things with computers. If they were, they would probably need to understand computer science well. Take any moonshot ML company- they need quite deep technical depth and usually have a founder that has spent time in academia.

We are still at a point in Biotech where companies have to do fundamentally new things with their tech to succeed. If you were starting a company that applies CRISPR to X genetic disease, you might not need a Ph D. to start the company, because you can apply existing technology to solve that problem. But that begs the question: Why has no one else done it yet?

At the end of the day, you need a unique insight to start a large company. That means experience with either the problem space or the technology space is helpful. Not discouraging OP either, if you have a vision for what the future should look like, and can acquire talent/capital... anyone can start a massive company. So OP should try to acquire that vision.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by Ultimatt on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:24AM (#21409789)
A big issue is its actually expensive to start a company that involves lab. Software can genuinely be one person in their bedroom with some AWS credit. I think the "why has no one else done this?" question is one of the worst anyone in the history of business or science can ask themselves. Any opportunity looks like that, it's why its an opportunity! The very best ones look like an obvious gaping chasm when you see them.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by jayparth on Thursday October 31, 2019 @02:04PM (#21411776)
I'm in agreement with that sentiment. For any given opportunity, even if it's "obvious" that someone should have done it, doesn't mean it's been done before. If something seems like an opportunity you should probably try to validate it, instead of immediately discounting it. That's how I started my last company!

But there's no doubting that some sort of counter-intuitive or hidden insight is necessary. Even if that insight is: "people think this is obvious and not worth doing, but it actually IS worth doing." RE: Zero to One.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by notus on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:54AM (#21409475)
Founders generally don't start companies in vacuums. They are the result of communication with other people on the viability of ideas. They meet a subject matter expert in a field, they get to talking, they come up with an idea. The idea gets floated around to other subject matter experts. If something seems viable then prototypes are made to gauge market fit.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by yowlingcat on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:05PM (#21410230)
If what you're saying is true, there should be no reason why many of the most successful biotech management consultants do not come from a PhD background.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by Odenwaelder on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:44AM (#21409372)
In biology, the problem space is extremely vast and very hard to understand. I have a PhD in biology and find computer science relatively logical and simple. You can just look things up. Looking things up for a specific topic is not even easy in biology.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by esel2k on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:05PM (#21411032)
Funny how you find comp science is simple and logic. Of course on a if else method level yes. But how to have a running system, dependencies, fail safe operations all coupled with tousand / millions lines of code is easily more complicated than a simply thesis about a mode of action of a protein.

I think we need to stop this useless debate as clearly one side has often no clue about the other. This behavior has led to massive failure in my career to successfully launch IVD devices or have a successfully bioinfo software for physicians - talking from experience here.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by goatlover on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:15PM (#21411188)
The point is that a computer system can be entirely understood from the chips on up. Sure, it gets complex with millions of LOC. But we humans designed computers and wrote the code. Biology is not like that, and there is lack of a completed understanding form the proteins on up. So you get the complexity amplified on all fronts.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by randcraw on Thursday October 31, 2019 @02:17PM (#21411897)
Biological signals are very noisy. By contrast, CS signals are much cleaner. Only when CS delves into large volumes of social data do signals complicate. But even then, the cooked events of digital data is much cleaner than the raw signals inherent in bio-data. The complexity, interdependency, nonlinearity, and unknowns in bio variables are frequently overwhelming even for experts.

Success in biological research is driven by the scientist's ability to sort wheat from all this chaff, and it's acquired by gathering the data themselves hands-on in wet labs. A master biologist has learned how to navigate that space experimentally and analytically using techniques they've mastered just well enough to see over the noise.

As someone with degrees in both bio and CS and 15 years of work that crosses the boundary between them, I'm decidedly more in awe of those who have mastered biology.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by perl4ever on Saturday November 02, 2019 @08:28PM (#21431132)
What do you mean "can"? Nobody ever does, so I think it is valid to say that it "cannot". Otherwise, you could just as well say that a biological system can be understood from the atoms on up, since quantum theory provides a complete understanding.

I think that you and a lot of people in this thread don't understand the impossibility of understanding millions of lines of code. Do you really think "computer geeks" just hold them all in their heads, and then assume that since they can do that, it must not be difficult?

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by goatlover on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @05:49AM (#21451238)
> Do you really think "computer geeks" just hold them all in their heads, and then assume that since they can do that, it must not be difficult?

No, but I think a group of geeks could. However a group of biologists cannot explain a biological system in full. When I say a computer system can be understood in full, I mean that human knowledge encompasses the working and programming of the machine, not that one person could know every detail. This is not the case for biology, as there's plenty we don't know.

> Otherwise, you could just as well say that a biological system can be understood from the atoms on up, since quantum theory provides a complete understanding.

It really doesn't provide a complete understanding for biology anymore than it does for sociology. It's not possible for humans to reductively explain such fields in terms of physics. No one can even prove this is possible. But it's not a complete understanding for physics either, since there's Relativity and questions about quantum gravity and dark energy.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by perl4ever on Saturday November 02, 2019 @08:17PM (#21431084)
"You can just look things up"

Not only is documentation pretty scarce these days, but good information on the interactions between pieces of software is much scarcer, due to the exponential number of ways that it can interact.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by vbordo on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:29AM (#21409844)
> Looking things up for a specific topic is not even easy in biology

How do you find info on bio topics right now?

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by mattkrause on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:01AM (#21418883)
Finding the actual info is not terribly difficult: Google Scholar and Pubmed, maybe with some of the arxivs.

The trick is interpreting it and putting it into context. A paper will report the results of one specific experiment, and it’s very rarely exactly what you want. Understanding how a result will generalize to other conditions is tricky, even for experts: there are tons of weird feedback loops, unusual dynamics, and other traps for the unwary (plus badly designed experiments and the occasional legit Type I error). For example, doubling the amount of a substance almost never doubles its effect, and in some cases, the effects aren’t even monotonic: ~75% alcohol, for example, is a much better disinfectant than 50 or 100%.

With time—-and lots of paper-reading, you do eventually develop a sense for what factors might matter and how you could check.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by Odenwaelder on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:04PM (#21410222)
Depends on how deep you want to go. You need to find out what people are working on, and you do this by searching on PubMed and talking to people working in that field.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by vbordo on Thursday October 31, 2019 @05:15PM (#21413776)
This sounds similar to what my friends in academia describe while exploring their fields. They build an impressive repository of knowledge regarding who's working on different topics/subfields over time. This may be one advantage of pursuing a PhD. Would be cool to see someone make the process of acclimating to a new field more accessible.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by notus on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:48AM (#21409399)
There are plenty of executives running biotech companies who have barely any biology expertise. Pretty much everything they know is contained to their product and its competitors. There are PHD's and MD's in SV who basically specialize in working as consultants for these types of products and back up their potential. You see it all the time with health startups when they have a medical advisor or something to that effect.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by goatlover on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:50PM (#21410835)
Doesn't give me much confidence in their product.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by unearthed on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:22PM (#21410453)
This is the central argument for pursuing a phd.

But its rubbish.

Speed + onus behind learning > everything.

Also note the self-serving bias where Phd's swear:

"You need a phd"

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by tomp on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:29AM (#21409183)
Can you explain your reasoning behind need a PhD? It makes sense to me why you should learn a lot to understand a complex field, but I fail to see why you should also spend a few years researching a very narrow subfield... wouldn't it be better to be a generalist and be able to apply your knowledge widely, as opposed to only understanding a tiny sliver of the whole field?
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by wiggles_md on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:10AM (#21409644)
You don’t need a PhD, but it helps.

If you want to have a decent shot at getting funding from biotech VCs, the team overall needs experience in biotech AND startups, and the less experience the founder has in biotech the more the team will require to compensate for the deficiency. And vice versa for business experience, a freshly minted PhD is going to need team members with significant biotech BD experience.

A PhD or MD counts towards experience in biotech. MS + years of industry experience also counts, as would BS + many years of industry experience.

A PhD is nice because because it demonstrates deep experience in a narrow field plus an understanding of context. The context part is key. Autodidacts tend to miss out on the context, and their learned knowledge tends to be more fragile as a result, so there is a slight bias towards advanced degrees.

Insufficient experience is a hard no for biotech. Nobody wants to see another Theranos, and notably biotech VCs didn’t put any money into Theranos. We’d like to keep it that way.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by unearthed on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:24PM (#21410483)
> "You don’t need a PhD, but it helps."

> "A PhD is nice because because it demonstrates ..."

An employees willingness + investment to singularly do just one thing for the rest of their life.

It works as really good signaling for a CEO / hiring manager to assess someone as a really consistent employee.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by Ultimatt on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:07AM (#21409615)
Depends what sort of company you wish to produce. 23andMe you could definitely have done without a PhD as its much more traditional market fit "lets do logistics". But Illumina to produce the micro array in the first place or have the software to optimise probes etc. that takes a certain level of understanding have noticed or seen the value of that thing laying around in academia before it was mainstream. All the interesting new ideas/IP are sat within an academic network more than a company one at the moment so accessing that network is a big reason for a PhD.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by shpongled on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:38AM (#21409274)
Presumably, this hypothetical biotech startup is going to be focused on some narrow niche of CRISPR technology, so being a specialist is exactly what's required in my mind. If the OP just wants to learn about CRISPR he could probably do a masters or even a year or two of self study. I find it very unlikely that they would be able to come up with something novel and marketable without even more hands on time.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by tomp on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:59AM (#21409535)
But if PhD is basically learning followed by research, you could also just do a masters / learning followed by research at a company (directly relevant to what the company is doing)?
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by Ultimatt on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:15AM (#21409682)
There is a lot of professional development during PhD too. Especially if you're at a well funded institution with enough prestige to have a lot of international collaboration. The resources are typically a lot more experimental and RnD focussed than you will find in many companies. Having done a masters I'd say the "learning" there is rote and the sort of thing you do in school. PhD what you learn is how to actually see through BS you otherwise took as "truth" on a masters, see the landscape of research at play, which ideas have merit, which don't, what's interesting and likely has large implications etc. The actual skills and exposure is something quite tricky to explain but unless you do research in a really big company, it might be a lot harder to develop those. Especially if you are an entry level technician, as most of the more senior positions are likely to be those with PhDs already. At least in biotech, software and hardware it's way more about industry career paths and RnD.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by el_cujo on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:32AM (#21409213)
Yeah I'm not sure I agree you need a full-blown PhD just to understand this stuff. Some-hands on work, definitely. I would say that you need a PhD to be taken seriously as a leader on the science-side of a biotech company though.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by notus on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:49AM (#21409419)
You don't need a PhD to find market fits for these types of products. They are self aggrandizing.
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by mattkrause on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:08AM (#21418991)
Market fit isn’t the only thing that matters.

Theranos had an excellent market fit—-people hate having blood drawn—-but the technology did not work and fundamentally could not work. The whole point of being a subject matter expert is to learn about things like that.

It’s true that there are other routes to becoming an expert in something (and proving it). A masters and a stint at a well-known company certainly works for many people; bootstrapping your own company might be an option too, but you’d need to be very successful to establish your bonafides. The advantage of a PhD is that it’s a fairly well-known quantity.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by julius_set on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:30AM (#21409854)
Ignore this.

I studied Genetics and CS. What you can do instead is reach out to the PhDs and gather information from them to start getting a general sense of the direction.

This is easy some schools allow you to sit in on lectures / come to events. Most PhDs are usually off working independently though. Make friends with the competent PhDs gather info. Hack the system you don’t need a PhD you can hire one later.

This is all assuming you have the raw talent of product and can lead well, and can convince people exceptionally well, otherwise disregard.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by unearthed on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:20PM (#21410421)
Hire the PHD.

God knows they'll work for 3rd-world labor rates.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by buboard on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:35AM (#21409242)
> just about the most complex thing humans have ever studied

The question is if the methods are complex. AFAIK computational biology involves statistics, statistics and statistics. The systems themselves are incredibly complex and interconnected , but the abstraction levels of the math involved are not incredibly high.

Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by Ultimatt on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:29AM (#21409841)
There is statistics and then there is statistics. For example this paper is statistics based https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3487 with some novel data too. But its stats over graphs, which is way less straight forward. You don't just fire up R and do model <- lme(data, x ~ y + z) That paper spawned a fairly amazing startup too one that I really really really doubt anyone could possibly have come up with without a PhD and a lot of insight https://mogrify.co.uk/
Re:Ask HN: Getting started in biology with a software backgr... by shpongled on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:39AM (#21409291)
Sure, I guess my wording wasn't clear. It is the system itself that is complex, not the equations or statistics we use