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Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by wheelie_boy on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:39PM (#21380733)
Yes, it's not like this is a problem that hasn't been dealt with in other media.

I think one of the things that makes it more difficult in the case of facebook is that the ad targeting makes it possible to serve specific ads only to very specific groups.

This means that if the ads say untrue or damaging things, most people will never know, as opposed to newspaper or TV ads. In my mind this argues for at least as strict controls, if not more stringent.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by adthrowaway123 on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:05PM (#21383090)
This was dealt with in other media the same way that Facebook decided to deal with it.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/oct...

TV networks are required to air even untruthful ads as not to run afoul of regulations governing political ads. It's also likely that campaign laws requiring all political ads to be true would be unconstitutional.

Either way, the very fact that the Elizabeth Warren campaign is promoting a fairly blatant falsehood (and many people are happy to parrot a false talking point in the name of truth) is a symptom of the same problem that would force any reasonable entity to make the same decision Facebook just did. Truth isn't very popular, especially in politics and people (on every side of most political issues) would lose their mind if falsehoods were strictly banned.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by gleenn on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:10PM (#21383423)
I think it’s important to mention that Elizabeth Warren is displaying a blatantly false ad to illustrate this exact point: she thinks that it’s ridiculous that Facebook is airing obviously false ads and has no accountability.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by adthrowaway123 on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:44PM (#21383597)
The blatantly false part I'm talking about isn't "Mark Zuckerberg is endorsing Trump" which everyone understands to be the obviously false statement, but the subsequent argument that is still being repeated here that "If Trump tries to lie in a TV ad, most networks will refuse to air it."

A whole bunch of comments here are along the lines of: how come Facebook isn't required to abide by the rules that other media companies have to follow? But this is the exact opposite of how things are - small media companies can adopt whatever standards they want, but the broadcast networks have to air even false political advertising, because these types of regulations are more about protecting fairness and free political speech than about the truth. This is an example of Facebook subjecting themselves to the highest possible standards, instead of making arbitrary editorial decisions that smaller actors can get away with.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by smolder on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:29AM (#21386863)
It's not the same high standard when they allow targeting of specific people and groups highly vulnerable to bullshit with no one else included who might identify it as such.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by adthrowaway123 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:04PM (#21393698)
How would this be any different from advertising on certain shows or talk radio that peddle huge amounts of BS and are almost exclusively consumed by gullible people?

Again, the point is that the standards followed by broadcast TV are higher than the standards followed by, random media companies that aren't regulated. And what Facebook is doing here aligns closely with how public institutions that are held to the highest standards operate. The general principle regarding the freedom of speech is that the closer you are to being a public institution, the more open you ought to be in terms of the types of speech you accept.

So the criticism here isn't merely wrong, it's exactly backwards.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by smolder on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:02PM (#21410989)
I can freely choose what shows, radio stations and other media I see, and see the same ads as their audience. In the case of targeted ads, I can't move from demographic to demographic as I please, so some campaigns are inaccessible to me.

To me, that opaqueness separating one filter bubble from the next is an important quality. It may raise the effectiveness of propaganda campaigns significantly.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by pengstrom on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @03:55AM (#21384967)
> It's also likely that campaign laws requiring all political ads to be true would be unconstitutional.

That can't possibly be true. The cornerstone of democracy is informed voters.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by smsm42 on Saturday November 02, 2019 @05:39PM (#21430281)
That can't possibly be not true. The state has not and can not have any role in determining what is "true", if only freedom of speech has any value. As soon as the state gets to decide what is "true" and ban speech on that basis, freedom of speech is destroyed. In the USSR, there was a section in the criminal code banning "knowingly false statements defaming the state and the social order". Obviously, people who were punished under this section were ones that said anything that the communist regime didn't like, and their statements always were "knowingly false", because the same communist regime decided what is false and what is not. I don't think the US should follow this example. That's why the Constitution exists and why the First amendment is the first one. Because it's that important. Yes, the price of it is somebody can say something you don't like. You'll survive it.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by repolfx on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @07:13AM (#21385835)
Seems like a straightforward first amendment violation to me, exactly because nobody agrees on what's "true".
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by int_19h on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @04:29PM (#21391622)
Defamation, for example, is not protected by the First Amendment, and deciding whether some information is true or not is crucial to determining whether it constitutes defamation.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by adthrowaway123 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:19PM (#21393772)
This is irrelevant - there are all kinds of speech that are generally accepted to be outside the scope of free speech. Political speech that includes false claims does not fall under that and never has. If taking down "false speech" was something the US government can easily enforce, we'd make China look like a shining beacon of freedom. And the proper recourse to such speech is the court, not poorly paid and overworked social media moderators.

Also, it's important to keep in mind that the Trump ad in question does not make claims that are easily proven to be false - they are merely BS claims that are entirely unsubstantiated. I don't think they'd be taken down even if a rule against false claims existed and was properly followed. There's no evidence given for such claims, but not all claims without evidence are false.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by aaomidi on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:23PM (#21381219)
Part of the regulation could be that Facebook can only serve stateless political ads. If a politician wants to advertise, they can't pick and choose any parameters.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by chr1 on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:38PM (#21382509)
It would be better if advertisers had their own pages where all of their advertisements would be shown as posts with the parameters they used for targeting.

Basically Facebook needs to make the whole process maximally transparent, and claim it is just a telephone line, and only people telling the lies are responsible for the lies.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by grandmczeb on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:28PM (#21382887)
That sounds like Facebook's Ad Library feature[1]. It doesn't show you the targeting parameters used, but it does show the age/gender demographics the ad was actually shown to.

[1] E.g. https://www.facebook.com/ads/library/?active_status=all&ad_t...

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by faizshah on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @01:18AM (#21384413)
What if we just banned targeting users and groups of users and instead only allowed ad targeting based on the content of the web page?

Basically a smart version of a banner ad.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by smolder on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @06:13AM (#21385532)
I'd support this but moneyed interests would not. Advertisers wouldn't have an excuse to build the digital panopticon anymore, and a lot of the effort to build it would be wasted. That'd be too much justice for this world.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by dahfizz on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:44PM (#21381445)
Surely there are some parameters that would make sense? I don't want to see political ads from a local election across the country. There's also no reason for me to see an ad for the Republican primaries if I am voting in the Democratic primaries. Etc
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by notjulian on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:34PM (#21381958)
"Surely there are some parameters that would make sense?"

For sure...

"I don't want to see political ads from a local election across the country."

They should be targeting eligible voters. If a local election is taking place across the country, then, of course, you shouldn't be seeing the ads.

"There's also no reason for me to see an ad for the Republican primaries if I am voting in the Democratic primaries. Etc"

No, this defeats the purpose. We should be trying to expose people to more viewpoints - not creating more echo-chambers.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by bilbo0s on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:52PM (#21382116)
FEC rules don't really cover who sees what, they cover what anyone can see.

Now we can expand on those rules to dictate who can see what, but no matter who views the ad, it would likely be bland, and confer no new viewpoint at all. Lest it fall afoul of FEC rules.

What we're really talking about with FEC rules, is a return to the middle, because extremist views can be shut down by pointing out misleading content in the ads and subsequently rejecting them. Whereas the bland, meaningless stuff will always be free of any misleading content, and be subsequently approved.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by nimblegorilla on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:31PM (#21382459)
> Whereas the bland, meaningless stuff will always be free of any misleading content, and be subsequently approved.

I'm not sure what media you consume, but TV and radio ads always seem filled with misleading content about political rivals.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by lonelappde on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:09AM (#21386669)
Your 4th paragraph contradicts your 6th.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by CharlesColeman on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:49PM (#21382088)
>> Part of the regulation could be that Facebook can only serve stateless political ads. If a politician wants to advertise, they can't pick and choose any parameters.

> Surely there are some parameters that would make sense? I don't want to see political ads from a local election across the country. There's also no reason for me to see an ad for the Republican primaries if I am voting in the Democratic primaries. Etc

I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. A couple factors need to be balanced: the ads need to have the minimum targeting to not be wasteful and pointless, but they can't be so narrowly targeted that oversight by the media and voting public becomes difficult.

I think the right balance is something along the lines of: 1) coarse-grained geo-targeting allowed down to an MSA at the narrowest and 2) no targeting based on interests, demographics, or ideology.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by aaomidi on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:25PM (#21383779)
I was honestly thinking for national elections when I wrote this.

There are some parameters that make sense, for example targetting congressional districts.

What I'm mostly against is zip code, ideology/interest, racial/sexual/etc factors being taken into consideration.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by j-c-hewitt on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:28PM (#21382439)
Why would you buy such an ad given that almost every election in the US is geography bound?
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by novok on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:20PM (#21382834)
Even TV & newspaper ads are regionally bound.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by DuskStar on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:48AM (#21384314)
Well you kind of have to allow targeting based on location/home location.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by smolder on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @06:03AM (#21385499)
I like this solution but they wouldn't. It brings them back to the problem of trying to tell which ads are political in nature or not and policing normal ads for such content.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by Mirioron on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:01PM (#21383385)
Some parameters will still be picked for them, right? It would be a bit silly to show ads in Dutch to Danish people that can't speak Dutch.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by the_reformation on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:43PM (#21381433)
Television advertising isn't stuck in the dark ages. Political candidates run and create ads targeted at specific counties or districts.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by lazyasciiart on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:46PM (#21381454)
Next to Facebook targeting, that is the dark ages.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by philwelch on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:13PM (#21383132)
True, but that level of targeting isn't completely unprecedented. Direct mail was an extremely targeted form of political advertising and faced zero content regulations. (Much of the targeting was achieved by buying magazine subscription data from magazine publishers; you could target households pretty effectively based on which magazines they subscribed to.)
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by caconym_ on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:48PM (#21381486)
Agreed. The fact that it's harder to do on the web for whatever reason shouldn't mean they get to ignore the rules.

I see this sort of paradoxical mindset all over the place: X breaks the rules but X is just so successful, or so full of potential, so shouldn't we just bend or break the rules for it? But the fact is that X is probably successful or full of potential in large part because it's been breaking the rules, and the rules exist for a reason.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by adthrowaway123 on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:15PM (#21383146)
If there were rules governing political ads in social media, they would look very much like Facebook's policy. At least TV ads (which are more tightly regulated due to the use of radio spectrum, which are public goods) are regulated as to force TV stations to air even political ads they deem untruthful:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/oct...

From that perspective, Facebook deciding to censor untruthful political ads would be much more akin to ignoring the rules.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by pm90 on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:04PM (#21381025)
What this ignores is that there is a finite amount of ads one can run.

It would be easy enough for Facebook to classify ads as political/non-political and for political ads have more scrutiny over what they decide to air. And have strict penalties against those who choose to mis-classify their ads.

Or make political ads visibile publicly for anyone to search for details as to who created them, how much they paid, how many people were targeted.

All these are valid solutions to the problem, but Facebook doesn't want to do it, because if they can get away with what they're doing right now, they can make a ton of ad money.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by Infinitesimus on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:47PM (#21383327)
> It would be easy enough for Facebook to classify ads as political/non-political and for political ads have more scrutiny over what they decide to air.

I doubt it is as easy as you think because not all political ads look like "vote for foo!"

They will evolve to look like governor foo paid company xyz which sells home security products to make an ad about how unsafe the country is...while governor foo runs on a platform all about reducing crime rates...etc

Look at some of the propaganda during the 2016 election era for instance

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by grandmczeb on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:45PM (#21383599)
Facebook already classifies ads about "social issues, elections or politics" and those ads are subject to extra scrutiny[1].

[1] https://www.facebook.com/help/180607332665293

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by grandmczeb on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:32PM (#21383244)
> Or make political ads visibile publicly for anyone to search for details as to who created them, how much they paid, how many people were targeted.

Isn't that already the case? You can already search all political ads and see who ran them, how much was paid, and the number of people who saw the ad.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by pm90 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:10AM (#21384199)
Is it? I can’t find any documentation on how to query all the political campaigns that are currently active, who is paying for them and who they’re targeting. All of this information is critically important to be made public to ensure the integrity of our elections.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by grandmczeb on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:43AM (#21384296)
Did you look at https://www.facebook.com/ads/library/ ? It should show all active (and inactive) ads, information about the page that ran the ad, and who paid for the ad. It doesn't show targeting, but it does show amount spent and the gender/age/geography of who saw the ads.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by NoodleIncident on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:16PM (#21381773)
This used to be more of a problem, but IIRC they have forced political ads to be publicly visible to anyone on the page that's running the ads.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by taway7879 on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:33PM (#21382483)
>> Yes, it's not like this is a problem that hasn't been dealt with in other media.

And it was dealt with poorly. My whole life, minorities (persons of color esp) have been scapegoated in elections in ads on TV, etc. So, yes, political ad censorship has been dealt with by media, and the "deal" was that victims would be minorities.

In a sense, Facebook just makes it fair. Now anyone can criticize anyone, everyone gets to suffer equally. Those who don't like it should have spoken up decades earlier.

I'm posing anon for obvious reasons. My hope: Lets let Facebook win this round, so we as a society come up with decency rules that help all of us, rather than just defending protected groups.

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by jonfw on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:47PM (#21382589)
> minorities (persons of color esp) have been scapegoated in elections in ads on TV, etc.

Do you have any sources for this?

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by AnimalMuppet on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:35PM (#21383558)
IIRC, Willie Horton.
Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by isoskeles on Monday October 28, 2019 @06:58PM (#21382664)
My whole life, minorities (people who earn more money than average esp) have been scapegoated in elections...

What if you said this? What happens when Bernie Sanders run a dozen ads saying the “rich” haven’t been “paying their fair share” and what standard would allow this to be consider truthful, or will the ad need to define words like rich and fair (good luck on that 2nd one)?

Re:Dissent at Facebook over hands-off stance on political ads by pell on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @02:33AM (#21384682)
Yes, talking about corporations avoiding taxes is the same as talking about Mexicans and refugees coming to destroy your country. You really need a dose of nuance.