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Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by lilyball on Thursday October 24, 2019 @03:49PM (#21348499)
The best way to increase your odds of getting shot is to own a gun. Owning guns is dangerous. Occasionally for some people it will turn out to be a positive, but in general, owning a gun is a negative.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by pacala on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:14PM (#21348700)
Do you have data? This is an interesting case-study where political expediency may brush over confounding variables:

* Own a gun and kill oneself with it. The primary risk factor being depression, not the gun.

* Own a gun and be part of a criminal organization. The primary risk factor being rival criminal organizations, not the gun.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by chowells on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:22PM (#21348766)
Depression is rarely the cause of suicide. Suicide is usually the result of one overwhelming moment + means. Having a gun in the household makes suicide significantly more likely. Without easy means, most people get through the tough time and go on with their lives.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by kortilla on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:28PM (#21348814)
But most suicides are not accidentally caused by the presence of a gun.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by vturner on Thursday October 24, 2019 @03:57PM (#21348564)
Replace "gun" in your sentence with say "power tool." Any powerful piece of technology in careless hands is dangerous. Goodness, even computers are dangerous in the hands of narcissistic hackers! That doesn't mean they are not perfectly safe useful tools in the responsible hands.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by p1necone on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:14PM (#21348701)
Sure but you actually need the power tool for something.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by CompanionCuuube on Thursday October 24, 2019 @06:36PM (#21349907)
No, you don't. You can do anything that a power tool can with an unpowered tool.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by sokoloff on Thursday October 24, 2019 @09:39PM (#21351002)
Weld. Solder. Mill. Turn. Thickness plane. 90° Join. I can’t see even fairly impractical ways to do all those without power, let alone any practical way.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by Karunamon on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:45PM (#21348977)
Need is a terrible basis to judge rights on. Nobody strictly needs free expression either.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by jacobolus on Thursday October 24, 2019 @05:30PM (#21349400)
It is widely agreed as a fundamental pillar of ethics and international law that everyone needs free expression.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/en...

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by shpongled on Thursday October 24, 2019 @10:14PM (#21351211)
Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4: No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

I could continue pasting the remainder of the document, but I would argue that the ability to defend oneself (from the State, or other individuals) is the fundamental human right. Without it, all other rights are null and void. Gun ownership is the final fallback for securing our human rights.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by p1necone on Thursday October 24, 2019 @05:19PM (#21349293)
Free expression doesn't kill people.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by boringusername on Thursday October 24, 2019 @06:19PM (#21349779)
Right, when have words ever been used for anything bad by anyone?
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Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by dang on Friday October 25, 2019 @04:42AM (#21353015)
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. Especially not classic flamewar topics, as the site guidelines say.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by urda on Saturday October 26, 2019 @02:58AM (#21362183)
I am trying to stick to guidelines here, understood.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by scarface74 on Thursday October 24, 2019 @05:51PM (#21349568)
The police have military weapons and the best equipment money can buy - especially SWAT. What good are “citizens” going to do against them?

That’s just like the militia running around in the woods training just in case they have to fight against the government. The same government that spends billions on weapons every year. If the government wants to impose martial law - like the nutcases including Chuck Norris thought they wanted to do a few years ago - the “militia” wasn’t going to be able to stop them.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by falcolas on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:16PM (#21350152)
Funny, it’s worked well in countries like Afghanistan. Don’t underestimate the power of a motivated and armed gorilla force that potentially exponentially outnumbers any “officially” sanctioned armed force.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by dragonwriter on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:21PM (#21350187)
> Funny, it’s worked well in countries like Afghanistan.

No, it didn't. The guerilla forces that were successful in Afghanistan has outside state sponsorship and supply and intervention by global or regional powers on their behalf (advisers, intelligence, special ops support, etc.) That's true of the Mujahideen fighting the USSR (backed by the USA, Pakistan, and others), and true of the Taliban/al-Qaeda associated groups which were fighting the internationally-recognized government (backed by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.)

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by geggam on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:58PM (#21350411)
You think a civil war in the US wouldnt have factions getting resources from every other country on the planet ?
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by dragonwriter on Thursday October 24, 2019 @08:16PM (#21350500)
> You think a civil war in the US wouldnt have factions getting resources from every other country on the planet

No, I think the pre-breakdown distribution of light civilian arms isn't how you win that fight.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by geggam on Thursday October 24, 2019 @08:23PM (#21350536)
That wont ever happen. I know for a fact many many people have stashes of weapons. Typically they report it as a boating accident.

Keep in mind the 25 million ex military in the US know how to run that gear. Any conflict in this country will be a mess.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by clarkmoody on Friday October 25, 2019 @01:17AM (#21352117)
This always comes up in the context of using guns to fight tyranny.

Your SWAT example is great: how many guys are on the SWAT team kicking the door to get one guy? 4? 6? 10?

What about an actual military operation going door to door? Squad size is 10? 20?

Government violence, when directed against you is nearly impossible to resist. But that's not the same as government violence directed against an armed populace.

History is flush with examples of failures of superior military power to subdue a population that actively resists.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by p1necone on Thursday October 24, 2019 @05:38PM (#21349469)
Have you considered that the answer to systematic failures in the governance of the United States might be better fixed at a systematic level, rather than just arming everyone?
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by falcolas on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:17PM (#21350156)
Until those hypothetical fixes are in place, what do you do? Disarm everybody?
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by lilyball on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:20PM (#21350182)
Yes.

Individual citizens trying to fight cops with firepower is never going to work. Cops have much better equipment than you're going to have, and have the backing of the entire government.

Unless you're literally planning on staging a coup, arming yourself to fight cops is not a viable strategy.

On the other hand, if we disarm everybody, then we don't need to have such over-militarized cops either, and maybe we can finally get to a place where cops no longer automatically reach for their gun (or even carry one) and therefore stop routinely murdering citizens.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by geggam on Thursday October 24, 2019 @08:01PM (#21350428)
This argument has worked for every democide in the 20th century

Govts should fear the citizens, not the other way around.

Tyranny is a thing you want to avoid

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by harshreality on Thursday October 24, 2019 @06:49PM (#21349990)
In general, owning and shooting guns is like any other hobby, and is something to talk about or take part in with friends. Most gun owners will never use a gun in self defense, and most people will never be hurt by a gun either. Of people who do end up drawing a gun in self defense, most of the time they don't even have to shoot anyone.

A great way to get a head or spine injury is to own a ladder.

A great way to maim yourself is to own a circular saw.

A lot of popular sports have a substantial risk of very predictable injuries, from CTE (caused by repeated head trauma) to joint damage.

People accept all sorts of risks from sports activities or (mis)use of all kinds of tools. When the subject turns to guns there's this uncontrollable fear reaction certain people have and want to get rid of the object. They don't want guns. They don't want their family to have guns. They don't want their friends to have guns. They don't want anyone to have guns. Guns are evil and must be eradicated. They cannot be tolerated and anyone who has one is suspicious if not a verified homicidal maniac.

There is no magical solution to the "gun problem", just like there's no magical solution that will keep everyone safe in sports or DIY home improvement. Every "solution" that would work involves some kind of extremely harsh and limiting regulation or outright ban that, if it could be enforced, would upset a lot of people.

How do you know every single one of your friendly, stable, normal, and non-violent friends doesn't own a gun? 30% of adults in the U.S. own one. 50% live in gun households. If you don't live with them, you simply don't know.[1]

[1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own...

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by Rebelgecko on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:07PM (#21350100)
>The best way to increase your odds of getting shot is to own a gun

The three things you can do which will reduce your odds of being killed by a gun by about 95%:

1. Don't shoot yourself. That reduces your odds by nearly 70%

2. Be Asian or Native American. This reduces your odds by another 70%. If you're not able to do that, being white or Hispanic still improves your odds substantially.

3. Be a woman (reduces your odds of dying by another 80%)

If you are able to accomplish all 3, congratulations! You've reduced your odds being killed by a gun from .01% to around 0.0005%

If you're able to understand basic safety rules, owning a gun is not that dangerous. Accidental deaths are incredibly rare (literally less than a one in a million occurrence), and have been trending down since gun safety has become more popular (the modern conception of trigger discipline has only existed for like 40-50 years). I think you're conflating the inherent danger of firearms with some confounding variables that lead certain people to be more likely to possess them.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by otterley on Thursday October 24, 2019 @09:48PM (#21351053)
> 1. Don't shoot yourself. That reduces your odds by nearly 70%

You can't shoot yourself if you don't have a gun.

> Be Asian or Native American. This reduces your odds by another 70%. If you're not able to do that, being white or Hispanic still improves your odds substantially.

It doesn't matter what race you are, if you don't have a gun.

3. Be a woman (reduces your odds of dying by another 80%)

If doesn't matter what sex you are, if you don't have a gun.

> If you are able to accomplish all 3, congratulations! You've reduced your odds being killed by a gun from .01% to around 0.0005%

If you don't have a gun, congratulations! You've reduced your odds being killed by a gun from .01% to around 0.0005%. And you have to worry a whole lot less about dying from a gunshot depending on your mental state, accident, or whether you are "unlucky" enough to have been born male or African-American, or have occasional bouts of severe depression.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by Tallasatree on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:00PM (#21348592)
The best way to increase you odds of getting shot is to own a "power tool". Something is not adding up here.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by vageli on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:25PM (#21348787)
The sentence was:

> The best way to increase your odds of getting shot is to own a gun. Owning guns is dangerous. Occasionally for some people it will turn out to be a positive, but in general, owning a gun is a negative.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by stronglikedan on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:52PM (#21349038)
The parent was just pointing out how silly the grandparent's sentence was by replacing the word "gun" with literally any other noun. The rest of the sentences didn't really matter, and were just as silly, not to mention just as inaccurate.
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Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by mAEStro-paNDa on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:46PM (#21348980)
> Myself and others will step up and defend that right to any who attempt to take it.

I want to hone in on this particular statement you made for some clarification. Are you referring to violence here? If the state or law enforcement are involved, what's the response?

Just trying to get an idea of what "defend that right" is supposed to mean here, since I hear it an awful lot in regards to this specific topic.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by laumars on Thursday October 24, 2019 @05:13PM (#21349247)
> It's a civilian right in the US. No matter how you feel about that matter it does not change it.

Just because something is the law it doesn't mean it's a sensible law nor that law should never be changed to reflect modern cultures. Otherwise you'd still be going round drowning women in rivers to prove they're innocence of witch crimes.

There has been so much evidence to prove that America's lack of gun control is counter productive:

* higher suicide rates

* the numbers family members accidentally killed by their own guns

* mass shootings

Even when looking at the figures in isolation, it's pretty damning. Then when you compare to statistics in the rest of the world, America's statistics become nothing short of embarrassing.

What's more, the UK, Australia and some other countries went through the same process of having relaxed gun control laws and then tightening them up because they came to the same realisation that guns are not comparable to free speech, power tools, nor any other the other dumb things pro-gun lobbies compare them with.

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Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by CompanionCuuube on Thursday October 24, 2019 @07:14PM (#21350143)
Self-defense is only successful if you kill the attacker? That's a disgusting and inhumane perspective.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday October 24, 2019 @04:55PM (#21349066)
Do you know that you are quoting the junk science that Clinton via the CDC asked Kellerman and Hemmenway to produce as a lead up to the 1993/94 Brady Bill and Assault Weapon Ban? The same of power that lead the 1996 congress banning the CDC from promoting policy advocation.

Among other issues such as full data never being released, the specific quote you have there was derived from police reports where someone was shot in their home. No other factors were considered like drug or spouse related, not if the home owner was shot by their gun, or any one of a number of other factors that would paint a better picture.

Do you seriously think police reports where someone was shot no other questions asked is a good indicator for gun ownership in the USA?

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by scarface74 on Thursday October 24, 2019 @05:22PM (#21349323)
Well, unfortunately, the CDC wasn't allowed to study the affects of guns for years and still may not be able to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by SlowRobotAhead on Thursday October 24, 2019 @11:01PM (#21351444)
Also incorrect.

The CDC has been able to and has studied guns since that 1996 law.

They have not been allowed to suggest policy changes.

Interestingly when the ability to weaponize them went away, a lot less direction went into gun studies compared to the millions of dollars spent in the ramp up to 1993.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by scarface74 on Thursday October 24, 2019 @11:20PM (#21351563)
So if the CDC found asbestos causes cancer they can suggest policy changes but if they found guns kill people they can’t?

Would you be okay if the CDC couldn’t suggest policy changes when it comes to nicotine?

What’s the purpose of studying something if you can’t do anything with the results?

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by SlowRobotAhead on Friday October 25, 2019 @10:45AM (#21355456)
It prevents the CDC from being weaponized like it was by Clinton admin.

Anyone pushing for policy is free to cite the CDC results of studies. As they have done.

But if you notice, the narrative has been CDC isn’t allowed to study guns which is a lie.

This was partially rolled back by an Obama EO (sorta, its complicated) and you know what ever CDC study since has found? No exact correlation to guns and crime. There have been some interesting results since 2013 like the fact that Assault Weapon Bans have not at all proven effective since less than 400 people have died per year in any recent time by rifles of all types let alone the subset of scary looking ones, that there are 500,000 to 3,000,000 successful defensive gun uses by citizens a year mostly where a shot isn’t needed compared to 10-15,000 homicides in the country of 330,000,000 are over 75% gang or drug related, and that rural areas of USA where the guns are have effectively the same homicide rates as rural Europe when you look at like for like causes of the violence.

Specifically the CDC was barred from having tax payer money used to remove citizens civil rights.

Last I checked there was no enumerated right to asbestos or nicotine.

Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by CompanionCuuube on Friday October 25, 2019 @12:24PM (#21356545)
In some ways the Dickey Amendment empowered them to push the false narrative of a strong relationship between guns and crime. Rather than having to put forward quality studies for their political purposes, they could just handwave at the legislation like it was a foregone conclusion.
Re:Ring Gave Police Stats About Users Who Said No to Law Enf... by SlowRobotAhead on Friday October 25, 2019 @02:18PM (#21357735)
Yea, but the problem was Clinton used them as a weapon and it was pretty clear that administrations couldn't trusted to not do that again.

It wasn't perfect, but you're talking millions of dollars that went into the 92/93/94 push. That's hard to come up with for narrative building when it's not tax payer money. Just look at the single source of gun control in the USA today, Michael Bloomberg, if he wasn't personally bankrolling it, things would look a lot different.