News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by Mountain_Skies on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:13AM (#21334814)
Being able to take your data with you is good but most of the value in social media is due to the network effect. If you can't seamlessly being your connections with you, the incumbents will continue to have a huge advantage over newcomers to the market. In the context of social media, how could someone bring their connections with them to a new platform without compromising the rights of those connected to?
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by basch on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:20AM (#21334881)
interoperability and distributed federation would be much more powerful than export. Maybe they dont know facebook already has an export button? And if that export is in a non-standard-structured format, its not even useful to import into another network.
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by bilbo0s on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:49AM (#21335170)
Interoperability just gives more people potential access to your data. What most activists are trying to do is move towards fewer people having access to your data, as well as you having full and legal custody of your data.

Interoperability is better for companies, particularly small ones. But the idea here is to help people prevent companies from accessing their data willy nilly. I'd think the goal would be to decrease the number of access points and to require that strict, explicit, legally binding, criminally enforceable, consent be given for every access to a user's data.

If you want to help smaller companies compete, that's a different discussion that can be had. But securing the data of users and providing a great deal more privacy than user's have right now really is a completely reasonable effort in its own right. In fact, I would think for the vast majority of users, the effort to ensure security and privacy should probably take precedence over providing more companies potential access to their data.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by ethbro on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:52AM (#21335200)
The counterargument is that regulation around collecting and permitting access to data simply widens the moat for incumbents.

Facebook and Google can implement a 500-page law.

A startup cannot.

So I think it's important to keep "How are we encouraging competition in the marketplace?" in mind as these proposals go through.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by bilbo0s on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:07AM (#21335375)
I mean, as I said, "encouraging competition in the marketplace" is a separate discussion. If we start allowing marketplace needs to determine or even influence who gets to access a user's data, we're already moving away from the goal of the user being the final arbiter of who gets to access his data.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but letting marketplace needs influence who gets access to a user's data is how we got to this point in the first place. It's a separate discussion, and it needs to be kept separate. Besides, whatever people come up with in that regard, the commercial entities that want access to users' data can really have no reasonable objection to obtaining strict, explicit consent to access that data. With the concomitant legally binding and criminally enforceable rules attached.

Competition in the marketplace is good, but people are a society's priority. We can't lower the barriers to access on a user's private data in the name of, "this is good for business."

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by emiliobumachar on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:26PM (#21336211)
> Competition in the marketplace is good, but people are a society's priority. We can't lower the barriers to access on a user's private data in the name of, "this is good for business."

That's a reasonable position to take in the two joint discussions, but that's not "keeping the discussions separate", that's defining your priority and optimizing for it at the expense of other concerns. Dismissing those concerns because they are not important enough is fine, dismissing them as if they didn't belong to the discussion is dishonest.

I contest that the discussions are separable at all. The same regulation can be very good disregarding its effect as a barrier to entry, and very bad not disregarding it. Whether or not any particular regulation is good on net depends on pros and cons analysis that actually takes all relevant cons into account.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by Frondo on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:28AM (#21335605)
What that could lead to is a build-up of social network information brokering services, like how PCI compliance forced people to stop storing CC numbers on their own.

I'm okay with that. I worked on so many small e-commerce sites early in my career that just had a "CC" column in their user database, and it was all so sloppy and horrible. None of these would have been a big enough target for serious hacking, but also the security was never so good that an amateur couldn't walk off with 1,000 cards.

Now, payments are all handled by people who treat that data much more seriously. I certainly trust Stripe or Shopify over random web dev X.

If personal data starts being treated with that kind of care -- and the interoperability and exporting is also important -- I think that's only a good thing, even if it means that Google and facebook get a head start on that.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by basch on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:24AM (#21335561)
Email being an open standard doesnt give more people access to my email. It gives more people the ability to communicate with me if I so choose.

Just because a social network were build on open standards doesnt automatically invalidate a persons/platforms ability to permission their data.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by adrianmonk on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:46AM (#21335810)
> What most activists are trying to do is move towards fewer people having access to your data

It seems to me like there are two important issues currently. There's access to data, but there's also how influence works and who controls that. Right now, social media companies decide what rises to the top of your feed.

The current situation is that if you want to be part of the Facebook community (for lack of a better word), you need to let Facebook decide how you see that data. I could see an argument that some kind of federated system might allow different lenses where you could still communicate in a social media way but different things could rise to the top.

Anyway, the point is these two concerns seem to be at odds with each other. If you don't want one party to have the power they get from being the only party in charge of processing the data, then you need multiple parties to have access to the data.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by bilbo0s on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:20PM (#21336157)
The main concern though is keeping the user as the final arbiter of his own data. He wants to delete it? Bam! It should be gone. She wants to allow someone else to see it, that other entity should be allowed to see it. But that other entity should not be allowed to delete her data. Nor should it be allowed to let anyone else see that data.

The user being in control of access to his/her own data is not a concept that should frighten any legitimate business people. But businesses being in charge of access to a user's data is absolutely a concept that should frighten users. The power of determining access has to be shifted back to the user where it belongs. If some businesses that specialize in "data brokering" are harmed because users are suddenly able to choose to disallow them access, so be it.

Again, allowing businesses to influence and determine who gets to access a user's data is literally the reason we're in this predicament in the first place. Solve that stuff separately if you want, but under no circumstances can end runs around the user's ownership of their data be allowed.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by justapassenger on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:31AM (#21335653)
> interoperability and distributed federation would be much more powerful than export

It'd be great. But at the same time, interoperability brought us Cambridge Analytica scandal. I don't know who social networks could be interoperable without data leaks.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by basch on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:36PM (#21336325)
What created CA was 2 fold. 1) people exposed their personal data to their friends, and gave their friends access to read their data 2) friends got a prompt that said "share data available to you" with CA and people pressed that button.

The actual coherent arguments are a) people didnt know what information they were sharing b) didnt understand how that data could be aggregated c) what the share data with a vendor button did d) should be trusted to wield this kind of power e) that entities should have been able to aggregate data like that without arousing suspicion. f) who is even responsible for this error in judgement (data sharers or friends, or facebook or ca)

The data leak here was people pressing "give away my friends data." Facebook designed the system that allowed it, hosted the data collector, incentivizing the bad actors to build their collection quizs and was responsible for communication of how the permissions system worked, but the data leaking itself was the sum of millions of people being careless with what their friends data. Facebook itself didnt directly leak the data. This was an aggregate human misbehavior.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by ysavir on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:39AM (#21335060)
My thoughts exactly. If this becomes reality as described in the article, the only change we'll see is countless new social networks popping up, creating shadow profiles based off of the exported data, and spamming phones and/or emails with "Someone you know joined our network and imported your post 'XYZ'! Click here to join them and see their comments on your post".
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by ethbro on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:49AM (#21335176)
I don't have the technical specifics in working memory, but would the privacy-preserving Apple geolocation system work here?

E.g. You could export edges of the graph as well, but in encrypted form. Only when the owner joins and supplies the decryption key do they become usable and valid

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:46AM (#21335151)
> most of the value in social media is due to the network effect

Global network effects require consolidation. But there are many local network effects that add value with less scale.

In the real world, these local networks emerge as friend circles, interest groups, block associations, companies and industry networks. These local networks are either subsets of or correlated with the global network. But they produce value relatively independently of it.

Starting such a social media company today is hard because surviving amidst Facebook is hard. (See Snapchat, which could be considered, at its start, a local network of a certain age group.) Portability lowers this barrier for new entrants.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by ysavir on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:59AM (#21335290)
Yes, but the question is how to achieve portability without infringing on others' privacy rights.

If I'm on facebook and want to export all my comments, that would require exporting all the status updates of the people who's posts I've commented on, which then also includes those contacts, too.

There's no such thing as exporting a single node in a network, you need the entire network.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:09AM (#21335403)
> If I'm on facebook and want to export all my comments, that would require exporting all the status updates of the people who's posts I've commented on

The bill [1] is ambiguous on the definition of user data (§ 2(9)). There is latitude with this definition, from rich portability (as you describe) to bare-bones portability (simply metadata, e.g. X commented on Y's post on such and such data).

> There's no such thing as exporting a single node in a network, you need the entire network

Graphs are divisible. My export need not contain every user in Kazakhstan's data.

[1] https://www.scribd.com/document/431507473/GOE19968

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by scarface74 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:20AM (#21335525)
The bill [1] is currently ambiguous....

A bill written by a bunch of clueless lawmakers to legislate technology - there couldn’t possibly be any unintended consequences.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:21AM (#21335539)
> A bill written by a bunch of clueless lawmakers to legislate technology

This has been Silicon Valley's party line for why we can't be regulated by governments, and should instead be left to self regulate. While I agree with that for start-ups, it's patently failed with Big Tech.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by scarface74 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:46AM (#21335809)
And look at what happened when California tried to regulate Uber to force them to treat drivers as employees.

Now freelancers in other industries who don’t want to be employees are having to jump through hoops.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @12:17PM (#21336116)
> look at what happened when California tried to regulate Uber to force them to treat drivers as employees

I agree, it's a mess. But the solution isn't to bar all regulation ex ante as illegitimate.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by ysavir on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:03PM (#21336592)
No one is saying we should bar all regulation. But we do need to be careful, and _very_ knowledgeable and intentful, when we pass legislation in this field.
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by kickscondor on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:08AM (#21335389)
You certainly can export a single node - just depends on your expectations. For example, the Indieweb has already done this in a way that I find acceptable. My blog (kickscondor.com) syndicates all the comments to every post (including deeply nested ones.) And it also captures a copy of all posts that I respond to (all the way up the chain going backwards.) This is sufficient for me. No need to export anything - it's already there in my own storage. You could also say that you'd need a snapshot of the entire Internet to provide context - but that's Just unreasonable.

I think the a Web itself already has had a 'network effect' larger than that of Facebook or any individual subnetwork.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by ysavir on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:11AM (#21335423)
> My blog (kickscondor.com) syndicates all the comments to every post

What does this mean?

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by kickscondor on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:29AM (#21335627)
When someone wants to comment, they post - not on my blog - but on their blog. If their blog supports Webmentions, my blog will get notified and I will 'syndicate' their comment - a copy will get placed on my blog. This way everyone in the conversation had copies of the entire conversation in case one blog goes down. (Does that clear it up at all?)
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by ysavir on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @01:09PM (#21336639)
It does, and that is _one_ way in which to export a single node--assuming we're all using this Indieweb blog software. But I have heavy doubts that such software will become the norm, or that it will be the expectation of whatever data schema this bill ends up supporting.

I appreciate the theory of your approach and how it can be used, and while it does directly respond to the immediate statement I made, I don't think it realistically captures how my statement applies to the broader context, when and if this law becomes implemented.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by jagged-chisel on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:00AM (#21335303)
Are "connections" not also "your data"? It's a list of other users, curated by you.
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by pj1115 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:17AM (#21335485)
If I want to migrate my "list" to another network, wouldn't I need to take some form of PII (and therefore consent) from each person on the list to make it valuable on the new network?
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by jagged-chisel on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:20AM (#21335528)
It is indeed arguable that the data item relating two people is owned by both and necessitates consent for republishing. Export though ... it's still 'mine' even if shared ... I don't know, this bit is a little sticky.
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by Mindwipe on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:06AM (#21335367)
What information is in the list?

I might have a photo of me on my Facebook profile. Does a friend of mine get to take that photo with them if they migrate to Gab?

I would regard that as a breach of my rights.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by SpicyLemonZest on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:14AM (#21335460)
And it's worse than that - if it's a photo of both you and them, there's an immediate impasse. Does their right to take their data trump your right to keep a hold of it? Does it depend on who took the picture, or who uploaded it, or when it was taken or how embarrassing it is?

I'm not saying these aren't answerable questions, but I'm very skeptical that the answer is so obvious and non-controversial that we should legally enforce it against all social media platforms.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by jagged-chisel on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:23AM (#21335554)
Here's where law gets complex. Who took the photo? They hold the copyright. Who's in the photo? They have some [limited?] publicity rights. Perhaps those in the photo would need to consent to have the photo republished, which is not, IMO, technically enforceable, but only legally enforceable when someone hires a lawyer/files suit.
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by jagged-chisel on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @11:15AM (#21335461)
My question is limited to "the list." I.e. this is the list of people to whom I connected on this network and, perhaps, the connection type (e.g. followed them, allowed to follow you, both tagged in some post, etc.)

But to add my thoughts to your question: I have a photo, I uploaded it to my account, it's my 'data' and I've simply shared it with you (or made it public) such that it is displayed to you. That doesn't make it your data, meaning you don't get it in an export dump. Perhaps you have a client that makes copies of published posts from your network, but exporting those things you consumed (which are not yours, to which you do not have a 'license') should not be the intent of this export functionality.

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by netfl0 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:48AM (#21335169)
Connections can be reestablished, people may like the ability to reconsider their connections.

Additionally, there is a difference between content published and any content commented on/interacted with.

I think most people just care about being able to export their “posts”

Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by DevX101 on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:47AM (#21335158)
It's easier to bootstrap a new network if you can take your data with you. This is how Facebook/LinkedIn got much of their early viral growth. They would scrape your email (at that time the biggest network) for contacts and invite people you knew.
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by bilbo0s on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:52AM (#21335202)
Just a nitpick, but FB did that without any real user consent. This would require that companies not do it at all. Rather that the user himself would have to take his data to the new company and explicitly give the new company consent to host the data. That's the way it should work. The user should always be in charge of her data.
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by jrockway on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @02:36PM (#21337456)
I wish there was some sort of "really simple syndication" that could be used to assemble a list of friends and then receive content from them.
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by Mirioron on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:46AM (#21335155)
But you can already take your posts with you. You can copy paste all the posts you've made and nobody can stop you.
Re:U.S. senators want social media users to be able to take ... by ghaff on Wednesday October 23, 2019 @10:16AM (#21334834)
Yes, it's not clear what bringing your data out of social media even really means. Saving your posts/photos is one thing. But it's not clear that exporting your social graph and all their posts/photos/comments/etc. is even a good thing--yet that's what exporting their social media would mean to a lot of people.