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Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by greggman2 on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @06:26AM (#21257142)
it's a ridiculous law . You want to take a picture of your sleeping baby without waking her. Sucks to be you. Want to take a picture of your cat or dog without them changing their pose in response to the sound. You can't. Want to take a picture at a wedding without distrubing the mood? Or bad for you. Want to take a picture at a fancy quiet romantic dinner without annoying all the other guests? Can't do it.

In the meantime any pervert (the claimed reason for the law) can use any non-phone camera or for that matter any other camera app than the built in one

Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @06:44AM (#21257221)
>it's a ridiculous law

It's par for the course. Laws in response to moral panics tend to suck and inconvenience reasonable people while having simple workarounds.

Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by zingermc on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @08:00AM (#21257566)
Is there a shutter sound if you take a video?
Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by nroets on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @08:24AM (#21257669)
Even if there is, it will only be at the beginning. So you can circumvent the intent of the law (e.g. filming the police) by starting to film yourself, pretending to stop and then point the camera at the subject.
Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by Forbo on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:35AM (#21258825)
The intent of the law was to dissuade upskirt photos on trains, not filming the police, if I recall correctly.
Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by kazagistar on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @11:47AM (#21259698)
There is always some bullshit moral outrage used as the excuse to make laws that are really there to protect existing institutions of power.
Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by infecto on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @12:21PM (#21260213)
I think you are mistaken. There is no formal law AFAIK but it was just an agreement made by companies in Japan. You are free to order a phone outside of Japan. This was a huge issue in Japan when phones started getting cameras and so everyone made a handshake agreement.
Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by brigandish on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:51PM (#21266610)
In Japan, the difference between formal law and cultural law with respect to their enforcement is often not a distinction worth making (as John Stuart Mill pointed out in On Liberty⁎). Just ask women how interested the police are in dealing with rape or domestic abuse.

Only yesterday I was reading a Reddit thread where someone new to Japan asked whether to inform the police of the apparently violent arguments his neighbours were having and the responses varied from "don't bother, the police won't care" to "make a noise complaint, at least the police will be interested". That's the least scary anecdote I have.

⁎ Probably not about Japan specifically :)

Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by DerekRobot on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @12:11PM (#21271988)
Example: The gentlemen's agreement to end competition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_mot...

Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by hrktb on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @12:39PM (#21260443)
I think it’s worse than that.

As far as I remember Jphone, the company first heavily advertising camera phones, forced the shutter on its own to preemptively clear itself from any potential issue.

Every phone carrier from there had the choice to forgo the mandatory shutter sound but risk backlash if anything were to happen, as Jphone set a precedent. And they choose the safety move.

When the iPhone came, it would have just been a marketing quagmire to go with a mutable sound.

Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by Vrondi on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @09:36AM (#21258181)
Just use a third party camera app. At least, this works on Android. Does this not work on iOS?
Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by greggman2 on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @09:45PM (#21266232)
iOS has the issue that you can not select default apps, unlike Android. So yes you can use a 3rd party app but you can't make it the app that takes pictures when the phone is locked nor can you make it the app that gets launched from the accessible from anywhere control panel. In other words, their is friction using a 3rd party app.

But of course that's also part of the issue. If 3rd party apps don't have to make a sound then what was the point of the law? The perverts can just use a 3rd party app and 99.999% of users have to deal with a stupid for no actual protection.

Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by neop1x on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @11:29AM (#21271438)
And someone always finds a way to get a device which can make photos silently. For example by importing it, modding it, using older devices, etc. It is not solving anything. It is simply a stupid law against users.
Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by qtplatypus on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:21PM (#21266444)
But it isn’t a law. Just something that the carriers agreed to do.
Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by innocenat on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @07:37AM (#21257458)
1st, it's not law.

2nd, if you are in Japan pretty much everyone is used to the shutter sound.

Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by criley2 on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @08:21AM (#21257649)
Ya know, any non-pervert can use those non-phone cameras for all of the use cases you mentioned too... Is taking pictures of your fancy dinner or jumpy pets really so hard to do with a superior and low cost dedicated camera? The results will be superior for a fraction of the price!

Here's the thing you refuse to acknowledge (or perhaps didn't think through before writing) -- when someone is holding a P+S camera or bigger, everyone knows they're taking a picture. But when someone is holding a smartphone, you assume they are not taking a picture because 99.9% of the time phones are not in camera mode.

The point wasn't to ensure that all cameras made noise, it was to ensure that a phone couldn't be used as a secret camera in public.

Seriously, I struggle to parse the logic here: Do you think that creepers are taking actual full size cameras into subways for creepshots? Or are you thinking they're using "Spy Camera" type devices? Because the people the law was meant to deter generally aren't that level of creeper, and their creepshots are a crime of convenience not a premeditated act of sexual assault.

Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by bighi on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @09:28AM (#21258115)
The user you're replying to said "other camera app". They meant apps, not a full sized camera.
Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by criley2 on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @09:34AM (#21258166)
So, they're complaining that creeps can use apps to take pictures but regular people can't?

Their whole argument boils down to regular users not being able to download an app from the app store?

Wow. You're right, I assumed their argument was a lot better than that. Oof.

Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by MadWombat on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:12AM (#21258514)
The argument is that the shutter sound inconveniences regular users while doing nothing to prevent the misuse it claims to prevent. Which part did you miss?
Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by criley2 on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @10:28AM (#21258739)
I missed the part where every creeper alive circumvents the policy without inconvenience but every other user alive can't.

I require consistency, so either EVERYONE is inconvenienced, or EVERYONE can circumvent it without issue.

The part I missed is the justification for inconsistent and illogical arguments where magically your ability to be inconvenienced is based only on your desire to be a creep.

Re:Apple: We're not handing over Safari URLs to Tencent, jus... by MadWombat on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @03:14PM (#21262485)
> where magically your ability to be inconvenienced is based only on your desire to be a creep

Where the hell did this come from?