News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by kelnos on Monday October 14, 2019 @03:15PM (#21251709)
Essentially what's happening is that now the club owners have to pay a bunch of taxes they managed to avoid paying before. The dancers themselves were likely not paying as much in taxes as they were supposed to, but now, with paycheck withholding, they're probably paying more in taxes than they used to.

The clubs, in order to compensate for all the "new" taxes, are only paying minimum wage, and are taking larger cuts of private dance fees from the dancers than they were before, and are in some cases tacking on new fees dancers have to pay, like "private room rental".

Dancers might be getting better benefits under the new rules (health insurance, sick days), but might not, since some of these benefits require minimum weekly hours worked that the dancers mostly don't meet. Dancers are also feeling pressure to be less choosy about what things they're willing to do for different customers, since "it's their job".

Really what it boils down to is that these are not sustainable businesses at the prices they currently charge customers, unless they also avoid paying a bunch of taxes. If they want to keep their dancers from quitting, they'll likely have to raise prices enough to get a similar amount of cash into the hands of their dancers, while also meeting their tax obligations. Not sure if that increase in cost will decrease demand to the point where it just won't work.

Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by clay_the_ripper on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:07PM (#21252261)
It sounds like the new rules will force a new market equilibrium. When you didn’t have to pay taxes and the money was fast, cheap and untraceable there was probably excess supply of labor. Now that you do have to pay taxes, supply may go down increasing prices to attract a smaller pool of labor. But what I suspect will happen is that supply will remain mostly constant, prices will stay about the same, and the dancers just won’t make as much money. Many of them may not have lots of other career options, so they will be stuck at a new lower rate of pay. While that is probably a bummer for them, I would also be a lot richer if I didn’t have to pay taxes either.
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by TheRealDunkirk on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:25PM (#21252483)
> If they want to keep their dancers from quitting, they'll likely have to raise prices enough to get a similar amount of cash into the hands of their dancers, while also meeting their tax obligations.

Like people always say, when corporate taxes are discussed (and now I'm guilty of it too): companies don't pay taxes; consumers do.

Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by belltaco on Monday October 14, 2019 @05:22PM (#21253044)
Not always true. It depends on the price demand elasticity curve and margins.

Imagine Acme Inc selling Widgets at $100.

If taxes go up, the company's first instinct would be to increase the price. This works for some markets and products. However, if the customers and market are sensitive to price, they will lower or stop their consumption from Acme Inc. or move to competitors or substitute products e.g cooking at home instead of restaurants. In that case, Acme Inc has to pay the taxes out of their profits, assuming their profit was high enough, which results in lower profits, or takes losses and go out of business eventually.

Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by TheRealDunkirk on Monday October 14, 2019 @07:08PM (#21253837)
Oh, I get it, and I've argued that companies like Amazon should be taxed heavily, for these very reasons. It would slow them down, and put them on more equal footing with the other companies they're putting out of business. But every time I bring it up, I get that quip, so I figured I'd start there for a change. ;-)
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by emeraldx on Monday October 14, 2019 @10:15PM (#21254989)
Yes, but to make up those lower profits Acme Inc. could just reduce compensation for its employees. And I think that is what TheRealDunkirk was trying to say. That when corporate taxes are levied, eventually it is the employees who end up taking the burden.
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by KevinEldon on Monday October 14, 2019 @05:05PM (#21252896)
Many companies use benefits like profit sharing, child care, tuition assistance, and gym memberships to both reduce their tax burden and attract top talent. I suspect the clubs will follow suit.
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by CydeWeys on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:15PM (#21252355)
I doubt that most strip clubs will be unprofitable now. What I think is closer to the truth is that they were previously obscenely profitable, thanks in part to exploiting dancers and evading taxes, and will now be "merely" profitable along the same lines as any other service-based small business like a bar or restaurant.
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by ActorNightly on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:54PM (#21252786)
The more interesting thing is how this is gonna play out for high end strip clubs. Its not uncommon for dancers at those clubs to make upwards of $150k a year, which sometimes includes prostitution at the end of the night with VIP clients.
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by jadell on Monday October 14, 2019 @05:02PM (#21252859)
I'm sure the prostitution portion of the work will still be best described as "independent contracting" and not part of the dancers' employment at the club.
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by dominotw on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:22PM (#21252441)
> were previously obscenely profitable

How can that be. Wouldn't that simply increase the supply of strip clubs, from more getting into something thats that profitable.

Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by wmf on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:34PM (#21252574)
I'm going to guess that it's hard to get a license to operate a strip club in San Francisco so it may be more of a regulatory and lobbying game.
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by dominotw on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:53PM (#21252775)
> hard to get a license to operate a strip club

So they are solving issue they themselves created with more laws. Heh.

Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by jefftk on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:32PM (#21252546)
I suspect it's hard to open one. Neighbors probably object.
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by ambicapter on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:33PM (#21252558)
Do you find it hard to find a strip club?
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by cat199 on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:49PM (#21252725)
this assumes the labor/client pool in a given area is infinite, and that management skill is not a factor.

e.g. good managers who take care of their dancers/customers get the best dancers and so attract the best customers.

Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by tfha on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:52PM (#21252771)
Do we have data?
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by ryanmarsh on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:57PM (#21252819)
Strip clubs might be exploiting dancers, but I don't see much evidence that they're exploiting them financially. Have you seen the cash they bring home?

Source: There's no way I'm telling

Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by newnewpdro on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:31PM (#21252538)
Isn't it all a front for drugs and prostitution anyways? That's always been under the table, and will continue to be.

If you haven't been offered cocaine or orgasms for money at the strip clubs you've been to, you're doing it wrong.

Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by AmericanChopper on Monday October 14, 2019 @03:46PM (#21252033)
> Really what it boils down to is that these are not sustainable businesses at the prices they currently charge customers

That’s not the most obvious take away imo. I’d say it’s obvious that the strippers were doing a fair bit of tax evasion, but having known a few strippers, a successful stripper would still be making good money even with meeting all their tax obligations. The issue the clubs now face is that they can’t properly cover the risks of paying salaries to employees who’s revenue is entirely tip based. It’s really just a completely predictable outcome of a government trying to protect people from their own decisions with regulation. As a contractor myself I dread the day the government finally gets around to saving me from the working arrangement that I have benefitted so greatly from adopting.

Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by djsumdog on Monday October 14, 2019 @05:06PM (#21252897)
If these places weren't filing 1099s before now, I highly doubt many of these workers were meeting tax obligations.
Re:New rules for contractors have unexpected consequences fo... by AmericanChopper on Monday October 14, 2019 @05:35PM (#21253148)
The issue of tax evasion is really seperate to the fact that the changes in the law have killed the business model for the contractors. Being a payrolled employee in this case is worse for everybody involved, the employees most of all.