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Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by esotericn on Monday October 14, 2019 @10:11AM (#21248451)
Gnome (3) is just a bit crap. It's the Windows DE of the GNU/Linux world. It's explicitly designed to be boring and not very customizable so that delicate users don't get scared.

I use i3 and basically everything is configured via text files. Keyboard shortcuts are trivial etc. You don't need Karabiner to "rebind" because you can directly bind.

You don't need to go scary tiling WM, Xfce probably works well, it's been years since I last used it.

If apt is out of date that's probably because you're using a stable rather than rolling release distro.

All of this requires some research and tinkering. If you're me, you prefer research to being told what to do.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by msbarnett on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:01PM (#21251000)
> I use i3 and basically everything is configured via text files. Keyboard shortcuts are trivial etc. You don't need Karabiner to "rebind" because you can directly bind.

This is the kind of hyperbole that Linux advocates like to throw around a lot, and it’s unfortunate, because it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what people are asking for when they say things like “I wish there was a decent replacement for Karabiner”.

i3’s config files let you bind i3’s config. That’s not the same thing at all.

With Karabiner, in 3 seconds, I can have ^w bound to “delete word backwards” functionality in every single application globally. You can’t even remotely accomplish that in i3’s config by itself — you need to venture into X config files, and special gtk config files for gtk/gnome apps, and some other set of config for KDE stuff, and then after that you still have to deal with the occasional one-off app like Firefox closing a window when you went to delete a word out of force of habit, and so you get to spend time discovering yet another way to tell it to respect a key binding.

And then at some point during some random update some random set of apps will break all over again. It’s a far fucking cry from Karibiner.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by CountSessine on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:29PM (#21251271)
I don't think that there's a general appreciation for the depth and configurability of the cocoa/nextstep text and keyboard engine among linux and windows users.

Almost all macos applications use it everywhere, so globally modifying keyboard bindings in all applications in all circumstances is easy. If I want to bind Meta-f to jump a word forward, I can have that behavior in every single text box or editing region in every single application. Url bars, forms, everything!

Accomplishing the same thing in linux typically means descending into the hoary netherworld of xkb mappings. <shiver/>

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by yellowapple on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:58PM (#21251545)
I have a tickling suspicion that if any free-software OS has any chance at replicating that sort of global unification/consistency across apps, it's Haiku. Sure, there are plenty of apps that are just straight ports from the Linux ecosystem, but there are also lots of apps written first and foremost for BeOS/Haiku (or ported to Haiku exceptionally well) and consequently feel like they "belong" just as nicely as the ones that come preinstalled.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by sedachv on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @02:00AM (#21255895)
> And then at some point during some random update some random set of apps will break all over again. It’s a far fucking cry from Karibiner.

My experience: Karabiner breaks on every Mac OS X release, and unlike xmodmap, I have never been able to get the following setup completely working in Mac OS X (some combination of: not being able to rebind the modifier keys, not being able to exchange () and [], and one time not even being able to rebind caps lock after an OS update):

https://oneofus.la/have-emacs-will-hack/2018-04-08-lisp-mach...

The X Window System is not Linux. It is not even GNU/Linux. But at least it is better than Mac OS X for things that I want to do, like running on different operating systems, and avoiding unwanted breaking updates shoved on me by multinational corporations.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by tutfbhuf on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:08PM (#21252270)
> i3’s config files let you bind i3’s config. That’s not the same thing at all.

That's why bspwm uses a WM independent tool for all keybindings:

https://github.com/baskerville/sxhkd

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by msbarnett on Monday October 14, 2019 @05:32PM (#21253123)
This is also not really not something that solves the same problem as karibiner at all, afaict. This is just binding shell commands to hotkey sequences.

For bspwm, where all it’s functionality is exposed to shell commands it can very narrowly achieve something similar, but again, Karibiner’s scope of operation is all apps system-wide.

What people are wishing for when they wish for “a karibiner equivalent” isn’t a hotkey mapping app per se — there’s obviously dozens and dozens of half-baked versions of those. What people are actually wanting is a system for setting globally-consistent keybindings such that they can set it once and universally every app respects it. That would require either a system wide protocol for agreeing on keybindings no matter what wheel-reinventing UI/desktop toolkit an app was built in, or an Uber-keybindings app that knew how to write defaults to the 20 different preference files that control this stuff for different toolkits.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by tutfbhuf on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @02:08AM (#21255926)
> or an Uber-keybindings app that knew how to write defaults to the 20 different preference files that control this stuff for different toolkits.

Or a VIM plugin

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by neop1x on Monday October 14, 2019 @06:25PM (#21253526)
If you want the latest software, install Arch Linux not Ubuntu/Debian.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by msbarnett on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @12:25AM (#21255556)
You appear to have replied to the wrong post
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by Crinus on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:00PM (#21250335)
> Gnome (3) is just a bit crap. It's the Windows DE of the GNU/Linux world.

Windows is way WAY more customizable than Gnome 3. As an example all the issues the GP mentions are things Windows support out of the box (among many other stuff).

Gnome 3 is the result of arrogant programmers pretending to be "UX designers" and act as if they were Steve Jobs without having an ounce of his skills/taste while ignoring that even Steve Jobs took advice from others.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by ernst_klim on Tuesday October 15, 2019 @11:48AM (#21259719)
> Windows is way WAY more customizable than Gnome 3.

What? Last time I've tried it I couldn't even set CAPSLOCK for layout switching. Even Gnome is WAY more customizable than that nonsense.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by rjzzleep on Monday October 14, 2019 @11:14AM (#21249136)
I still maintain that the problem is the UI toolkits.

The mac ecosystem now has _multiple_ viable indesign and photoshop alternatives.

AppKit, Cocoa, UIKit and all those frameworks gradually added all the features third party app developers hacked into their own UI libraries.

GTK is something developers frequently curse about and theme developers frequently abandon because the gnome team keeps breaking their themes.

QT while great is nowhere near the ease of use of the cocoa frameworks and for every 20 cocoa books you find one QT book.

Bottom line is, as much as you may hate Xcode it's exponentially easier to make a good looking application on a mac compared to any linux counterpart. At the end of the day, people want to use (for example) photoshop or something similar without dual booting.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by boudewijnrempt on Monday October 14, 2019 @11:56AM (#21249650)
And if you use the Apple toolkits, you lose around 95% of your potential market. For my project, Krita, made with Qt (not QT, Qt...), 90% of downloads are Windows, 7% Linux, 3% macOS. And since Apple seems hell-bent on making people share-croppers in their walled garden with asinine things like Metal, and notarizing and all that, well, in a year or two, it might be 0%, and I'll be fine with that.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by pfranz on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:07PM (#21251067)
I would think that 3% is because there are other viable alternatives. Personally, I've paid for Pixelmator and Acorn on macOS because my needs are more about cropping, adding text, file format, levels, or color space changes--those apps seemed to pop up quickly and had features like hardware acceleration before Photoshop because they leaned on Apple's APIs. My industry is still heavily invested in Photoshop, so I'm already familiar with it and I don't have much of a need for digital painting.

For digital painting I usually suggest people check out something like Krita or Affinity (they are already aware of Photoshop). I just don't have much firsthand experience with them since I felt like my needs were met with other software.

Sidenote: After actually downloading Krita it is more Photoshop-like than expected. I'll check it out as a replacement for myself. There's also been a huge, but very rare, need for Photoshop at my job (we use Linux) which has always been a problem (usually in modifying textures where Nuke isn't a good fit). The current plan was to try and find a CS6 license and either dual-boot Windows or use WINE or to buy Elements. Gimp was always too much to ask of them. I'll see if Krita fits that need.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by klliao on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:17PM (#21249887)
That’s not because you have 3% macOS downloads that you can say that everyone loses around 95% potential downloads. It may simply be because your app is not marketed towards Mac users and alternatives exists.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by dlivingston on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:38PM (#21250122)
Krita is great (and I happen to be one of your 3%!).

Given that macOS has a reputation, deserved or not, of being the de facto OS for graphic designers, why do you think you have so relatively few Mac users?

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by AnthonyMouse on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:19PM (#21250535)
90% Windows users is basically what you would expect based on its desktop market share. The interesting thing is having more than twice as many Linux users as Mac.

This could be one of those places where the efficient market hypothesis is wrong because of incomplete information. The reputation of macOS for graphic designers is well known, but if the result of that is that everyone makes graphics design programs for macOS and not Linux then the macOS market gets saturated with supply and each supplier has to share the market with many competitors. Meanwhile the opposite on Linux, less competition so more volume per supplier.

It implies that Linux may be a good market for graphic design software because there is currently less supply there than demand. At least until more of the suppliers figure that out and release their software for it. (But that may itself cause more graphic designers to switch to Linux, which would then still justify the porting effort even as other suppliers move there too.)

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by deltron3030 on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:01PM (#21250997)
Many digital painters seem to have moved to the iPad and apps like Procreate which can be had for a few bucks. I also find eInk hardware like the Remarkable tablet and the like interesting, they run on Linux. Have you thought about a standalone tablet that runs only Krita? Even if it's only black/white, having the tools from Krita on a device like that would be killer.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by pfranz on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:13PM (#21251126)
That mirrors my experience with hobbyists. My wife doesn't like using a Wacom and we could never warrant a Cintiq. So she uses Procreate on a tablet. It's also kind of hard to get her to try new stuff because the little time she has to draw she wants to spend time drawing.

For people who do it for their job, they're willing to invest in the hardware and software. I can't speak directly to painting software, but in my industry people really cling to the software they know or the rest of the industry uses. It's an uphill battle even if the software is better or cheaper to get adoption.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by thedaemon on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:46PM (#21251421)
Procreate is really nice, I have moved on from Wacom Tablet/Krita to iPad Pro/Procreate. I suggest any artist give it a try.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by pico303 on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:50PM (#21250895)
Well, I just added a tiny bit to that 3%...I hadn't heard of Krita before, but it looks great. Looking forward to trying it out.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by vetinari on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:15PM (#21250488)
> GTK is something developers frequently curse about and theme developers frequently abandon because the gnome team keeps breaking their themes.

Let's compare comparable. Neither Cocoa nor Win32 do support third-party themes; for the exactly same reason why GTK is breaking them.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by vbezhenar on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:30PM (#21250668)
I remember themes for Windows XP. Have no idea, though, how many hacks were involved .
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by vetinari on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:35PM (#21252581)
XP required themes signed by Microsoft. There were cracks that removed that requirement, but the result was, that when something was broken, you got to keep all the pieces.

For OSX, there were also hacks that changed the system appearance, and Apple took increasingly harder stance against them. Again, they break more than they solve.

The reason why platform vendors do not support third-party theming is, that it limits their ability for further development. They would need to preserve compatibility for something, that is internal implementation detail. For first party themes, they can keep them in lockstep with the rest of framework. For third party, they cannot. So they prevent third parties from existing.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by cpach on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:56PM (#21250307)
Good point. I’m also convinced that macOS are more willing than Linux users to pay for software, which makes it possible for the developers to get some monetary return on the time they invest in creating good and usable software.

FOSS development can of course be funded via Patreon, donations, etc. But IMHO those models doesn’t seem to work so well for sophisticated GUI applications. (With some exceptions here and there.)

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by taurath on Monday October 14, 2019 @10:50AM (#21248866)
I tend to feel like there’s already enough roadblocks in the way to get things done. I used to tinker around with my OSs but now I want them out of the way to a large extent.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by tomxor on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:42PM (#21250805)
> I used to tinker around with my OSs but now I want them out of the way to a large extent.

This might seem counter intuitive, but configuring your own desktop kinda achieves "out of the way" on Linux... it gives you something persistent and reliable, it's a worthwhile investment. Like the parent, I use i3wm, it might seem a bit too spartan at first, but that's part of the beauty... less to configure, less gui in the way, less opinions, config a single text file, defaults are sane! I have hardly changed anything beyond my initial dot file setup about 5 years ago, yet have taken them through many desktop installs without any messing around.

Also configuring your desktop is not the same as Linux in 2000, you don't need to sift through thousands of lines of x11 config. Just pick the bits of desktop you like and stick it in a shell script, copy some config files here and there that you deem worthwhile configuring (smaller DEs or WM make this a far more minimal tasks than the big all signing all dancing KDEs and Gnomes).

... it's a small investment in time to pay for sanity and persistent experience over many years, the macOS days I could not bear the random changes pushed on users which became more and more heavy handed towards later versions.

TL:DR I like my custom configured linux desktop... because of how it prevents me from having to continually configure my desktop.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by esotericn on Monday October 14, 2019 @10:58AM (#21248947)
Unfortunately no-one provides what I consider to be a sane default.

I'm fairly happy with what I have. I add the odd alias to my dotfiles and a few things I pick up but for the most part I've had my config for half a decade or so now.

By contrast I could never figure out how to like, get Windows to fuck off with the telemetry ads bullshit. It always felt like I would disable it and then behind my back some randoservice would enable it again or install an update that brings back OneDrive or some madness.

The best bit about my Linux setup is that it's all just files. Home folder, few flat text files with the odd bit of json, we're home.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by furst on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:19PM (#21251202)
For what it's worth, I've had a lot of success with the Tron script[1] for getting rid of Windows Bloat. It disables a ton of garbage via Registry Keys which windows is much less likely to overwrite. It can be a little aggressive on some stuff like blocking your microphone from working in any app (easily fixable) but I'd rather have it that way than having to uninstall Candy Crush once a week.

[1]https://github.com/bmrf/tron

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by snagglegaggle on Monday October 14, 2019 @11:11AM (#21249110)
Stating it that way makes it seem like you're opposed to learning something new. That's fine, but a lot of people including GP just looked once and never did anything else.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by kerkeslager on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:17PM (#21250509)
Frankly, yes, I'm opposed to learning new tools when the old tools I used for the same task did the task just as well.

Knowledge is power, so learning should increase your power. If learning is necessary to just keep being able to do the same things you were doing, you're not increasing your power, you're struggling to stay where you are.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by taurath on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:40PM (#21250778)
I’m not. However, I can’t keep going back to square one. I need problems I’ve solved to remain solved, not have to jump into X configs in Vim because my monitor layout won’t stay between sessions (random example from many years ago). I have 5 hours of work to do today, I’d like to not spend 2 of them in man files “learning” about an abstraction I can’t afford to be digging into right now.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by woah on Monday October 14, 2019 @11:13AM (#21249129)
Most people have far better things to do than getting into a tinkering rabbit hole to enable basic desktop functionality.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by esotericn on Monday October 14, 2019 @11:17AM (#21249185)
Right. So use Mac, and go for a nice walk outside whenever something pisses you off that is unmodifiable.

You have the free time since you're not tinkering, right? :P

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by kerkeslager on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:28PM (#21250653)
Pretty much, yes.

You're talking about problems that "piss you off", whereas Linux has problems that not only piss you off, but completely stop you from being able to do what you need to do.

It's easy to talk about these things in abstract terms, but frankly I've run across two problems with Mac ever that I actually had to fix in order to do what I needed to do:

1. Get "gcc" to point to "gcc" instead of clang.

2. Get Valgrind to work (which problem is admittedly still not solved).

The problems that I've had to fix in Linux often start immediately upon booting up for the first time and attempting to connect to wireless, and end with me emailing documents to a Mac to print them because I needed the document printed within an hour, not after 8 hours of tinkering.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by drclau on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:25PM (#21250606)
You assume that everyone wants to modify everything (or the unmodifiable, as you put it). After going through many years of FreeBSD and Linux, I now just want things to work. Mac gives me that. Should have switched sooner.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by heavyset_go on Monday October 14, 2019 @03:16PM (#21251723)
I used Linux as my daily driver until about 2008 when I switched to macOS exclusively. I made the transition to Ubuntu across all of my machines over the last three years and its been a much more pleasant experience.

Upgrading macOS and Xcode is a pain, especially with Homebrew and Macports. You'll have to recompile most of your installed applications and it's all managed with a hacked together package manager. Virtualenvs won't survive updates if Python is sideloaded because of linking issues. It's just a mess.

The result is having to spend an unknown amount of time fixing things that upgrades break on macOS, meanwhile upgrades on Ubuntu just work.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by rbanffy on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:31PM (#21251301)
There was a time I fine tuned every aspect of every desktop environment I had. I had custom widgets on Windows 3 by replacing bitmap resources in Windows 3.1's SVGA.DRV. Did the same up until Gnome 2.

Then I stopped. These days rarely go beyond setting terminal font (I built mine, so it's only fair I play lab rat with it) and some Emacs settings. The effort spent in customizing every detail of every app is very rarely, if ever, recovered.

I feel a bit embarrassed I recently added overline support to tmux because I wanted proper overlined status lines on my terminals. In my defense, I did it for fun, not to improve my performance.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by esotericn on Monday October 14, 2019 @03:00PM (#21251565)
It works for you, yes. This entire page and thread of comments exists because for someone it didn't.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by kerkeslager on Monday October 14, 2019 @09:43PM (#21254819)
I see very little evidence of that.

I suspect what you mean when you say "it didn't work" is actually, "they didn't like it", which is actually not the same thing. I see a lot of people saying they didn't like things on Macs, not a lot of people saying things didn't work on Macs.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by esotericn on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @07:49AM (#21269344)
I've never used an OS that actually _didn't work_.

Unless we're talking about 15+ years ago before Linux had driver support for most stuff, or trying to like, just install Mac OS on an unsupported platform without hackintosh workarounds.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by thedaemon on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:43PM (#21251403)
Everyone here saying that they used to tweak everything and now doesn't has just aged. You no longer feel the joy of your youth of computing in the same way. This is natural.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by megous on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:45PM (#21250846)
It's not really a rabbit hole. It has a clearly defined end.

I transitioned from GNOME to i3wm quite a while ago (after like 15 GNOME upgrade cycles, where I always had to figure out what changed, and fix what broke), and it was basically a day or two figuring out what I want and inventing/learning the shortcuts (not fulltime days, mind you). And maybe 2-3 instances of "this feels stupid, how can I improve it".

Certainly orders of magnitude less time than I ever spend making Windows do what I want on every damn re-install.

Now that I had my configs, I just copied them to all my 4 or so desktop/laptop machines, and it's such a timesaver. i3wm being ultra stable, there's no ongoing maintenance.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by edoceo on Monday October 14, 2019 @10:57AM (#21248934)
Xfce still works well, I just upgraded from 4.12 to 4.14. The only thing that broke on upgrade was the desktop background - I had to reset it to black
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by sdenton4 on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:22PM (#21250565)
Agree! I've been using XFCE for many years, after deciding that Gnome wasn't actually pretty enough to justify all the extra pain.

For me, window managers are mostly just a convenient way to arrange a baroque collection of web browsers and terminals... Occasionally, I use file organization/navigation or a couple other programs that are helpful in my job. But ultimately, I just need a minimal window manager that gets the hell out of the way. (in fact, after setting up awesome rotating Moebius wallpapers, I mostly don't see them, as they're almost entirely buried under the web browsers and terminals.)

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by mmcnl on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:54PM (#21250938)
Windows as a DE is quite excellent. Better than macOS even.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by rbanffy on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:35PM (#21251336)
Don't do that. People may spit out their coffee. ;-)
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by thedaemon on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:47PM (#21251432)
Honestly, Windows 7 is superior in use vs MacOS.
Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by paulddraper on Monday October 14, 2019 @07:42PM (#21254086)
i3 is the best thing to happen my computing in years.

You'll need to copy some config if you want your volume buttons, brightness buttons, etc to work. But as far as I am concerned it is the only good Linux display manager.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by iroeo0nd on Monday October 14, 2019 @03:45PM (#21252022)
Surprise surprise not everyone is you.

Go ahead and tinker but leave some space for others to do the same their way. It’s not “crap” it’s “not my preference”

“Delicate users”. The bravado of someone getting good at organizing text really well. You’re such a mans man.

Re:Apple of 2019 is the Linux of 2000 by esotericn on Monday October 14, 2019 @03:56PM (#21252164)
> You’re such a mans man.

/flex