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Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by eutropia on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:15PM (#21205344)
I think the subtext here is obvious to people on HN, but isn't this because so much value is generated using electrons on increasingly efficient computer systems?
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by sp332 on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:25PM (#21205473)
That doesn't explain crop tonnage going up while fertilizer and water use are going down.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by doctorpangloss on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:37PM (#21205645)
Did it occur to you that, like ordinary consumer products, industrial products also oversell their efficacy?

There was just a paper released about a widely used pesticide that did not appear to actually increase yields.

If the question is, how does crop tonnage go up without water and fertilizer use, maybe the answer really is a computer helped people plan better and be less wasteful.

Or all the least efficient farmers were bankrupted out of the market.

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by colechristensen on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:15PM (#21206147)
Corn yields have been going up a bit more than 1.5 bushels per acre since hybrid breeding started in the 1930's going from a steady ~25 bu/acre to >170/acre today.

Farmers haven't just been adding a bit more fertilizer and water every year, and it has been going on long before computers.

Many factors go into it: soil management with tilling practices and fertilizers, pest and weed management, improvements in irrigation and drainage, better harvesters which leave less on the ground, but very much most importantly, plant genetics.

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by shawn-butler on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @03:28PM (#21206976)
>> Farmers haven't just been adding a bit more fertilizer and water every year,

Nice to believe and it is certainly what growers should be doing, but the evidence clearly indicates that they really aren't.

Nitrate levels in the Mississippi are directly correlated to nitrogen use in agriculture and in the upper Mississippi River and Missouri River, flow-normalized nitrate concentration and flux have increased steadily during 1980–2000 and is most measuring sites accelerated since 2000.[0]

At the two most downstream sites on the Mississippi River, increasing trends in flow-normalized nitrate concentration are a relatively new development and at least partly reflect increases occurring in the Missouri River and the upper Mississippi River.

Many believe this increase in nitrate concentration is directly responsible for the Gulf of Mexico dead zone – an area of low to no oxygen that can kill fish and other marine life – which for 2019 NOAA scientists are forecasting to be approximately 7,829 square miles or roughly the size of the land mass of Massachusetts.[1]

I don't see how Ausubel's conclusion on decreased fertilizer use squares with the measured reality on the ground (or the water) in this case.

[0]: https://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2013/5169/pdf/sir20135169.pdf

[1]: https://www.noaa.gov/media-release/noaa-forecasts-very-large...

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by Nasrudith on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @05:46PM (#21208493)
You are assuming farms are the only or current main source of nitrates just because there is a correlation. Overtreated lawns and golf courses could have taken up the slack of farming usage for one. The other sectors need to be factored in for nitrate content.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by shartshooter on Thursday October 10, 2019 @12:09AM (#21210802)
Parent didn’t say it was the only source just said that rates correlated.

The fluctuation year to year may be due better growing seasons so farmers use more, but potentially so do golf courses and lawns. The usage of the others may definitely be drivers as well but agricultural use is correlated

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by testuser454 on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:47PM (#21206548)
"There was just a paper released about a widely used pesticide that did not appear to actually increase yields."

When my father was in a university geology department in an Agriculturally intensive midwestern state in the 80's, he worked on a few projects with farmers related to water use. One thing he looked into (unrelated to the main research project) was the cost/benefit of ferilizer use. The gist of it was that he came up a curve representing the marginal value added of fertilizer, which started high, and eventually went negative. Past a certain point, less fertilizer was absorbed into the soil and more went directly to runoff/there was more than the plants could use, something like that, and thereafter the added cost outweighed the further crop gains. Most of the farmers in the area were going beyond that point to some extent, and could increase their profit by decreasing fertilizer use to some extent. He said the farmers he talked to were skeptical, but one tried it out on one of their fields that year, found it to be an improvement, and a number of farmers in the area reduced their fertilizer to some extent using the curve as a guidance. The fertilizer sellers would probably just have said that more fertilizers would lead lead to more productivity, which was true, but not presented the cost/benefit.

I don't know too much about farming/crop science, but could see there having been improvements in things like this as well as GMO's & selective breeding. At one point Iowa State University was one of the leading statistics department in the US, which I believe was in large part due to the applicibility of statistics to farming.

"Or all the least efficient farmers were bankrupted out of the market."

One of the trends in the Midwest over the last few decades has been the transition from a larger number of smaller farms to a smaller number of very large farms. Perhaps this is greater efficiency/mechanization/scale.

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by bluGill on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @04:28PM (#21207644)
If nothing else a large farm gains more from efficiency. $10/acre when you have 80 acres is $800. If you have 3,000 acres that is $30,000 - which means you can afford to pay for more efficiency.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by dredmorbius on Thursday October 10, 2019 @05:57AM (#21212641)
Leibig's Law of the Minimum strikes again.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by wil421 on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:47PM (#21205777)
Do you have any sources for your claims? I saw the article about the pesticide on HN or reddit but not anything else you claim.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by Circuits on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:10PM (#21206081)
I can give some credence to the claim. I work for TeeJet a subset of Spray Systems and we design and manufacture application technology for the AG industry:

"At TeeJet Technologies our single focus is on application technology. Our company and our products have been part of agricultural applications since the first crop protection products came onto the market in the 1940's. Our control systems date back to some of the earliest in-field uses of electronics in agriculture. This experience in the fields of spraying, fertilizing, and seeding means nobody is better suited to provide quality products and technical solutions for your business."

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by Obi_Juan_Kenobi on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @03:10PM (#21206762)
Glyphosate.

Glyphosate, with GMO crops or without, means you don't need to till your land. It's enabled a huge fraction of productive acreage to become no-till or low-till, which preserves soil nutrients, aids soil water absorption, reduces agricultural runoff, improves cover-cropping, and more.

There are a variety of farming practices that contribute to the efficiency of agriculture, but no-till is absolutely central. The late 90s through early oughts saw big increases in no-till acreage, up to ~20% of all land by 2002, precisely when fertilizer inputs started to decline. It sits between 40-50% now.

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by danans on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:52PM (#21205841)
Much more precise usage of water/fertilizer to optimize yield/input can be enabled by computation and data.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by kevan on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:09PM (#21206065)
Precision Agriculture[1] is the term for anyone looking to learn more. Even small farms now track all inputs/outputs on every acre they farm.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_agriculture

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by kube-system on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:30PM (#21206337)
The Land O Lakes CEO was showing this off on 60 minutes just this past week.

Check out 5:22 in the video here:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/land-olakes-ceo-beth-ford-and-t...

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by novok on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:35PM (#21205622)
A hypothetical example is drones going through a field and manually picking out weeds, increasing yield with the same amount of resources. Similarly you can get fine grained ‘crop analytics’ through drones scanning the field and acting in response.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by sachdevap on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:10PM (#21206086)
And on what scale is this actually happening?
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @03:14PM (#21206807)
I don't have any figures citations since my knowledge comes from when I used to hang out on Precision Agriculture forums, but it's common and getting more so. As drones get less expensive, it's easy to sit in your den and fly over the fields looking for the areas where you should go out and spray some more, or drive over in your UTV and take a closer look at that "weird spot" on the "back 80."

Farmers are very aware of the benefits of technology (why else would you spend half a million $ on a combine?) and will take it up if they see a benefit.

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by sachdevap on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @04:10PM (#21207437)
I am sure they are. But a leap from combines to decentralized sensing using drones is a big one, and I'd want to see some numbers to verify this.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @08:33PM (#21209722)
Re-reading the post, it seems that he and I might be talking about different things. I'm referring to farmers using remote controlled drones with cameras to check the state of their crops/fields without having to drive over hundreds of acres. That's an actual thing and is quite common.

OP seems to be talking about some kind of automated drone weeding (or just phrased what he meant poorly).

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by azernik on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @03:05PM (#21206707)
Very large scale, just not in the exact form GP is describing; instead, farmers drop stationary internet-connected sensors all over their fields, their sampling equipment GPS-tags results from every core sample, and tractors have computer-controlled equipment to feed location and quantity information to chemical dispensers.

See e.g. https://home.agrian.com/what-we-do/ for a company that manages this process.

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by sachdevap on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @04:07PM (#21207409)
I am not at all denying the benefits of technology, or that companies are working in it, but I am skeptical of how widespread it is right now. Therefore, I would want to see some numbers to verify such a claim.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by azernik on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @06:43PM (#21208984)
I know that there is a profitable company whose people I have talked with, whose business is built on managing the data involved.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by novok on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @04:11PM (#21207447)
You should go google and research the numbers yourself.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by sachdevap on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @04:34PM (#21207725)
Thank you for the advice!
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by atonse on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:35PM (#21205613)
Is this partly due to things like drip irrigation?
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by TaylorAlexander on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:22PM (#21206234)
What about an increase in organic farming? Certified organic crops sell for higher prices, and all the big shops I see in California sell a lot of that. I'm under the impression that organic farms don't use petroleum derived fertilizers.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by weberc2 on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:39PM (#21205672)
Technological advances in agriculture would presumably explain it, many of which are probably computer driven (precision agriculture, data-driven agriculture being two examples).
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by chrisco255 on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:00PM (#21205961)
CO2 has helped crop yields.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by codesushi42 on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:47PM (#21205781)
No, it's because these things have been replaced by plastics.
Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by eutropia on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:05PM (#21206025)
At least partially I'm sure that's the case, however it looks like we're approaching the apex of that trend as well:

TFA: >> The growth in plastic consumption has slowed down greatly, to less than 2 percent per year between 2009 and 2015. This is almost 14 percent slower than GDP growth over the same period. So while America is not yet post-peak in its use of plastic, it's quickly closing in on this milestone.

It will be interesting to see what our other material trends do once we do hit peak plastic, if we shift to using more paper and aluminum as people push back against plastics for their various drawbacks.

Re:Americans Are Using Less Steel, Paper, Fertilizer, and En... by codesushi42 on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @05:01PM (#21208024)
That's irrelevant because plastics are not produced domestically in the US. But the international production explains the decreased consumption of those other raw materials.

This article is misleading horse shit.