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Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by thatfrenchguy on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:09PM (#21150004)
Really single-family-only zoning should be banned by federal law. Force cities to build duplexes/triplexes/four-plexes everywhere. We're stuck in this stupid single-family-or-idiotic-"luxury"-condo idiocy because of that.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by HarryHirsch on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:13PM (#21150053)
Can we have proper building standards first? Right now, the level of noise insulation in the US is abysmal, consequently no one will move into a multiplex unless they absolutely have to. That's why the perception that multiplexes attract undesirables is actually justified, and no one wants them and their externalities in their neighbourhood of single-family housing.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by javagram on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:22PM (#21150188)
I live in a concrete high rise and I don’t really notice any noise from my neighbors (the street noise is much, much worse as emergency sirens pierce even double-pane windows).

There are also plenty of multiplex designs that have good noise insulation.

In reality people do want to live in them which is why zoning laws are used to prevent them from being built. If people refused to live there, there would be no need for zoning as developers wouldn’t build homes people don’t live in.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:39PM (#21150449)
Me too. However, everywhere I've lived previously has been awful with neighbor noise. Duplexes are less likely to sound like our giant concrete quiet buildings and more likely to sound like my old noisy as hell places.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by abledon on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:34PM (#21151113)
I lived in an apartment in Montreal where the guy below me would invite hookers over, snort coke and get strangled, you could hear him getting chocked and the crack pipe being 'tink tinked' beforehand, then the high heels walking out of his den at 0230 in the morning lol. Noise insulation is very important!
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by wtvanhest on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:17PM (#21150116)
Requiring noise insulation would drive the cost up. A better option would be to have optional noise mitigation measurements done in a cheap way so that buildings could certify for a given level of noise transmission between units.

You would have each unit certified as either A, B or C. C being nearly no noise insulation, A being very quiet.

Let the market decide what they want to pay for.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by romwell on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:42PM (#21150495)
>Requiring noise insulation would drive the cost up

As if construction costs were the primary factor in determining the cost of real estate in places with housing crisis problems (like the Bay Area).

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by zamfi on Thursday October 03, 2019 @10:53PM (#21154402)
Construction costs are very high in the Bay Area, and it is one component that holds back the construction of ADUs (in-law units) wchi hostage requires cities to support.

Of course, then you’d ask, well why are construction costs so high in the Bay Area? And you might hear something about earthquakes, insulation, whatever. But the real reason is that contractors and construction workers need to live here too, and living here is damn expensive!

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by MisterBastahrd on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:47PM (#21150571)
Requiring noise insulation will drive down the cost of noise insulation.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by frosted-flakes on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:27PM (#21151037)
Noise insulation isn't a type of material, it's a construction method. Hanging drywall on resilient channel, staggering 2x4 studs on 2x6 bottom and top plates and weaving insulation between them, solid doors, and dual/triple pane windows are all examples of this.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by bradstewart on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:59PM (#21150718)
Assuming there's multiple, competitive producers of noise insulation.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by nullc on Friday October 04, 2019 @04:28AM (#21155834)
> Let the market decide what they want to pay for.

You're making an assumption that noise insulation is particularly subject to the market. Unfortunately noise 'insulation' like other insulation is extremely sensitive to competence in instiallation and maintenance.

Because it isn't particularly easy to gauge when shopping I don't believe that it is... and in markets where there are more prospective renters than units, it especially isn't.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by wtvanhest on Friday October 04, 2019 @02:31PM (#21160493)
Agreed with everything you said... which is why I said we need a rating system based on the actual noise dampening, not on materials used.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by wishinghand on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:30PM (#21150321)
It'd also mean the poor would never have peace and quiet.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by davidw on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:37PM (#21150415)
A roof over your head beats no roof at all, by a long shot.

And for some people, it beats a 3 hour commute. People should be free to choose what they prefer as long as it's safe.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by fzeroracer on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:33PM (#21150351)
The market has already decided that any noise insulation is too much of a cost. That's why there's a bunch of incredibly cheap apartment complexes springing up around Austin with the bare minimum of effort.

And since housing is a zero sum game the market is already rigged in favor of landlords. People generally don't have as much choice where to live when you start considering school access, public transit, commute and so forth. Relying on the market to solve housing will simply result in miniature SFs popping up over the US, just like what's happening to Austin.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by HarryHirsch on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:33PM (#21150364)
With no minimum standards there's a neverending race to the bottom. People need to sleep.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by dragonwriter on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:11PM (#21150030)
> Really single-family-only zoning should be banned by federal law.

There's not even a shadow of Constitutional argument that that's a federal power.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by CountSessine on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:15PM (#21150082)
State law? Most cities in Canada exist as charters passed by their provincial governments. Is the same true in the US?
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by davidw on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:18PM (#21150130)
Oregon just did this with HB 2001, which re-legalizes some "missing middle" housing in a lot of our cities.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by javagram on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:24PM (#21150220)
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by dragonwriter on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:41PM (#21150473)
Even Raich and Filburn wouldn't support this, and even with those the Commerce Clause has limits.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by javagram on Thursday October 03, 2019 @07:56PM (#21153535)
That law was simply re-passed with the clause "has moved in or otherwise affects interstate commerce." as noted on the link.

A similar clause could be attached to the mentioned zoning law. (E.g. a person from one state buys land in another state? No zoning allowed - and because buying land within a state affects the prices for interstate purchases, suddenly there’s a nexus for regulation of purely intrastate purchases too!)

Not saying it’s a great idea, but it’s hardly clearly unconstitutional under modern precedent and interpretation.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by big_chungus on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:37PM (#21150412)
Wickard v. Filburn was a new-deal-era case adjudicated when the court operated under threat of being packed by Roosevelt if it did not comply [0].

A strict constructionist reading of the constitution would suggest that Gonzales v. Raich is judicial activism, and indeed, all the judges signatory to the majority opinion tend to be the "big government" types. Note that O'Connor and Rehnquist, two famous justices who often sided with strict constructionism, dissented. O'Connor wrote that though she did not support California's actions, she respected its right to do so:

"Relying on Congress’ abstract assertions, the Court has endorsed making it a federal crime to grow small amounts of marijuana in one’s own home for one’s own medicinal use. This overreaching stifles an express choice by some States, concerned for the lives and liberties of their people, to regulate medical marijuana differently. If I were a California citizen, I would not have voted for the medical marijuana ballot initiative; if I were a California legislator I would not have supported the Compassionate Use Act. But whatever the wisdom of California’s experiment with medical marijuana, the federalism principles that have driven our Commerce Clause cases require that room for experiment be protected in this case. "

Thomas also dissented, for somewhat similar principles though with different wording. Source for this is your link.

We don't implement things like this federally because needs differ. Bozeman, Montana can probably zone and sprawl as needed; it's small and there's lots of land. San Francisco can't. Why would any one feel the need to apply the same rules to both, unless it was an attempt to force a particular ideology on another? If there is sufficient support for something, it ought to pass just as well at the state or local level.

[0]: https://www.history.com/news/franklin-roosevelt-tried-packin...

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by CountSessine on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:48PM (#21150588)
We don't implement things like this federally because needs differ. Bozeman, Montana can probably zone and sprawl as needed; it's small and there's lots of land. San Francisco can't.

If Bozeman, Montana can sprawl without worry, why does it even need restrictive zoning laws mandating SFH’s? That’s what doesn’t make sense. People who move to Bozeman clearly want to live in SFH’s. Outlawing restrictive zoning laws doesn’t affect them in the least.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by javagram on Thursday October 03, 2019 @07:54PM (#21153511)
Arguably most of the US government is unconstitutional under such a strict constructionist view of the constitution.

In practice, considering home construction and home buying are often transacted in interstate commerce (e.g. a company buying parts or supplies from out of state to build), it’s likely a Supreme Court case against a law relating to zoning could be upheld. The federal government already claims the ability to regulate other things such as guns constructed within the borders of a state and never moved outside them, all based on the arguments upheld in cases like Wickard that they possibly could affect interstate commerce.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by JMTQp8lwXL on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:12PM (#21150043)
Single-family housing seems perfectly reasonable in non-competitive, rural environments. No need force multi-family housing in those areas.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by klipt on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:15PM (#21150093)
We could have zoning that allows for either and let the market decide. I'm sure no developer will build a giant condo tower in the middle of rural nowhere.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by JMTQp8lwXL on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:19PM (#21150149)
Multi-family housing "in the middle of nowhere" could look appetizing for reducing municipal costs. You need a lot more roads, power/water lines, in single residence communities than in urban areas.

Declining tax bases in rural areas will be death by a thousand cuts. It takes serious cash for a municipality to "keep the lights on".

This may sound slightly contrary to my prior opinion, but there ought be a middle ground between the free choice of wanting a SFH, but also having some level of community planning that ensures the community remains viable.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by crooked-v on Thursday October 03, 2019 @04:16PM (#21151642)
A common pattern for that kind of thing is small condo buildings with 4 to 6 units, run as co-ops by the unit owners (no HOA or management company). It's a simple way to get some economy of scale benefits in general maintenance and public utilities, and to have a few neighbors to deter crime that might otherwise target isolated homes.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by davidw on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:14PM (#21150066)
Sure, but let the market figure it out rather than mandate it?
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by vonmoltke on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:32PM (#21151094)
The post being replied to calls for mandating it the other way:

> Force cities to build duplexes/triplexes/four-plexes everywhere.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by davidw on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:41PM (#21151216)
Yeah I would disagree with that. We should remove as many barriers to that kind of housing as possible, but no one knows the 'correct' mix of housing options in any given city.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by davidw on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:10PM (#21150024)
Ending parking minimums is right up there too.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by wil421 on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:40PM (#21150465)
Speak for you own state or city. My city has no problem with sane development of single family homes, townhomes, condos/apartments and high rise housing.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by davidw on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:44PM (#21150522)
Which city?
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by wil421 on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:15PM (#21150908)
Metro Atlanta. I watched 3 high rises go up in the span of a year when I worked downtown, 1 catering to Georgia Tech students and 2 for anyone (with a huge focus on young adults). The in-town area I just moved from started addressing concerns about single family homes by working with developers to build high density apartments and lofts. They passed “workforce” zoning for housing to combat gentrification[1].

[1] https://www.reporternewspapers.net/2018/12/15/brookhaven-pio...

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by happytoexplain on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:20PM (#21150157)
This opinion would generate a lot of justifiable anger from families who love their homes and live in areas that aren't under high housing pressure, but I suspect that you didn't mean to say that this should be applied literally everywhere.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by davidw on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:32PM (#21150343)
If there is not high housing pressure, not much will change.

Banning single family zoning does not equate to banning single family homes!

It's more like: re-legalizing a lot of different housing options.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by ryandrake on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:26PM (#21151025)
Banning single family zoning would eventually cause single family homes to disappear. Without legal limits, the market will always converge on what’s most profitable to developers, which is currently “stuffing as many units as legal/possible into the space.”
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by disjhshava on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:34PM (#21151116)
This type of construction is only so profitable because it's usually illegal, and therefore a critically undersupplied segment of the market. Developers are therefore eager to do it every chance they get. If it were legal to build this way everywhere, they would only do it in the places it made sense. Developers wouldn't be building 4-story condos in Contra Costa county for people to commute 50 miles into SF and Mountain View if they were alowed to build enough to meet demand in SF and Mountain View.

Where people want to build, the power-hungry folks in charge put restrictions in place and demand a troll toll to let a few projects through. And the folks in charge where nobody wants to build see the opportunity and seize it. It's just human nature, and it's the reason local government shouldn't be put in charge of density regulation.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by davidw on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:43PM (#21151241)
There is plenty of single family housing in Italy, where I lived for many years, and where most other housing types are legal.

If someone is happy in their SFH, why would it disappear?

If someone has the money, they'll be able to build new ones too.

Yeah, maybe central San Francisco won't have many, as people cash out, but that seems pretty reasonable. You can go live in Lakeview Oregon and have a huge house on a huge lot if that's what you want.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by CountSessine on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:51PM (#21151339)
The absolute construction costs for a high-rise are a lot higher than for a low-rise 4 story apartment building. If I can't fill a high-rise in your city, why would I build it? I'm better off building the low-rise and selling-through.

Besides - SFH's predate most restrictive zoning laws (which really caught on in the 70's). SFH's, at the edges of the city, aren't going anywhere.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:16PM (#21150099)
There's many, many, many parts of the country where single family homes are fine. Just don't let people zone or over-regulate away higher density options and the market does a fine job of adding more dense forms of housing where needed.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by maxerickson on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:21PM (#21150178)
They said "single-family-only", not a ban on single family homes.
Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by vonmoltke on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:40PM (#21151201)
It followed that statement with

> Force cities to build duplexes/triplexes/four-plexes everywhere.

which makes the intention ambiguous and slanted towards banning single family homes.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:24PM (#21150225)
The comment now reads "single-family-only zoning should be banned by federal law"

I distinctly recall it calling for a ban on single family housing. Considering that there are many replies calling it an overreaction and replying as thought it called for a ban on single family housing in general I would be willing to bet money it did not originally say what it says now.

Re:Report: Young adults more likely to live with parents tha... by Excel_Wizard on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:14PM (#21150070)
That's a bit much.