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Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by NateEag on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @11:37PM (#21133251)
Perhaps because downloading Tor (or even searching for it / visiting its website) demonstrates an active interest in thwarting surveillance.

Almost by definition, that means you're worth taking a closer look at.

Once you're under the microscope, you'd better hope your opsec is flawless or that your activities are completely boring, or else the $TLA knows exactly what you've been up to, TOR or not.

Disclosure: my activities are completely boring, and I don't use Tor, VPNs, or anything like them.

Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by orthoxerox on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @02:05AM (#21133762)
> Disclosure: my activities are completely boring, and I don't use Tor, VPNs, or anything like them.

That's not what our logs show.

Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by vbezhenar on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @08:07AM (#21135499)
That's why more people should use it. You can't take a closer look at everyone.
Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by NateEag on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @11:40AM (#21137635)
Theoretically, maybe.

Self-interest rears its head, though. If you don't have anything to hide, running Tor is extra work you don't gain any benefit from. Arguably you just subsidize those who use the tools for evil.

I have yet to be convinced that full anonymity is actually a societal good.

As a pragmatic defense against corrupt governmental agencies, it is probably useful.

I'm not so sure it's a net gain for society as a whole.

And, in a nutshell, I suppose that's why I've never gone down this road.

Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by vbezhenar on Thursday October 03, 2019 @05:13AM (#21145042)
There are many legitimate uses of Tor. Like opposition in oppressed regimes. But criminals probably make the most out of it. The thing is, it might be the most convenient tool nowadays for selling drugs, etc, but if you'll remove it, criminals will find other ways to connect. Some will be caught, but most won't. And good people might lose a valueable tool to defend themselves.
Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by NateEag on Thursday October 03, 2019 @07:18AM (#21145715)
That's certainly a good argument.

I'm not trying to say Tor is all bad, just explain why I don't use it and why I'm not sure it's an unmitigated good.

Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by auslander on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @11:45PM (#21133275)
> Perhaps because downloading Tor (or even searching for it / visiting its website) demonstrates an active interest in thwarting surveillance.

Not if you access tor over VPN. VPN hides all traffic from ISP and Gov. Obviously, make sure your browser does not use Google or Cloudflare DNS.

Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by edf13 on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @01:52AM (#21133723)
Only hides it at the VPN entry point ~ you have to trust the VPN endpoint isn’t giving up your info too!
Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by mirimir on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @02:05AM (#21133767)
True.

Except that you don't need to trust anyone, entirely.

That's the point of nested VPN chains. Let's say that you have three different VPN services in the chain. The first VPN knows your ISP-assigned IP address, and the IP address of the second VPN server. The second VPN knows the IP address of the first VPN server, and the IP address of the third VPN server. The third VPN knows the IP address of the second VPN server, and the IP address of the site that you're accessing.

An adversary would need information from all three VPNs, or from their data centers and/or ISPs.

Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by lawrenceyan on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @02:50AM (#21133937)
You're still vulnerable at the operating system and hardware level. It doesn't matter what you do after booting up if you're computer has already successfully been infiltrated from the Hardware/BIOS/OS initialization that always happens before.
Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by mirimir on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @04:27AM (#21134375)
I have considered those issues.

I don't use hardware that I've purchased using my meatspace identity. The machines mainly come from yard sales and swap meets. Typically nowhere near where I've lived. And all purchased with cash. So I'm pretty confident that they're not backdoored. I have purchased SSDs from stores, but also for cash.

I'm relatively confident that Debian hasn't been backdoored. Windows perhaps, but I rarely use it, and only in VMs.

Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by antisemiotic on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @07:21AM (#21135224)
Do you also browse the web through a daemon that emails you pages, Stallman-style?
Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by mirimir on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @07:35AM (#21135302)
I'm not sure that I see the point. I mean, the daemon would need to run somewhere. And it'd need to render stuff. I guess that there'd be less going on, so less that's exploitable.

But no, I haven't done that.

I mainly depend on compartmentalization. This VM runs on a host that contains no information about my meatspace identity. And the machine with that information is on a different LAN.

Edit: But upon reflection, I have done something like that. Sometimes I run remote dedicated servers. Accessed via Tor (via nested VPNs) and paid with well-mixed Bitcoin. With LUKS and dropbear, of course.

If I run VirtualBox, I can basically do the same thing I do locally. I use pfSense VMs as VPN gateways, to create nested VPN chains. And then Whonix instances, which hit Tor through those VPNs. And I access the remote VMs via VRDP via SSH via Tor etc.

Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by ParadigmaShift on Thursday October 03, 2019 @04:07PM (#21151544)
I do, and it all goes over nested VPNs/Tor, but my solution is different than the one mirimir uses.
Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by jammygit on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @10:31AM (#21136850)
My first reaction on reading this is that it sounds expensive and difficult to configure. It also reminds me a little bit of how I understand tor to work - is that accurate at all?
Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by mirimir on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @10:48PM (#21143076)
At a superficial level, it's exactly how Tor works. Except that there's a static chain, instead of a constantly churning mix of circuits. Each of which uses a different set of three Tor relays. Also, each socket from each app uses a different circuit. And circuits, by default, only last ten minutes, and are torn down and rebuilt whenever a socket resets.

It is expensive, I suppose. In that you must pay for multiple VPN services. I probably spend a few hundred dollars per year, on average. But that's ~nothing for me.

But it's not that difficult to configure. I use pfSense VMs as VPN routers. And pfSense has a very intuitive WebGUI. To create nested VPN chains, I just successively NAT one VPN router through another. Using VirtualBox internal networks. And pfSense optimizes MTU automatically.

Once it's setup, you just run the VMs, and it works.

Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by goatinaboat on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @04:09AM (#21134281)
VPN hides all traffic from ISP and Gov.

VPN like... Onavo?

Re:Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS by mirimir on Wednesday October 02, 2019 @04:45AM (#21134465)
Very funny :)

No, VPN like AirVPN, IVPN, Mullvad or PIA.