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Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by blue_devil on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @05:10AM (#21123446)
The shortcoming is that governments are not nimble enough to revise regulations as often as needed. Laws may need years to formulate, but regulations/quantified guidelines should be updated more regularly.

>Current regulations are seen to be outdated, with more than 55% of washing machines sold in the EU ranked A+++ on the label.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by tomp on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @06:14AM (#21123793)
The regulations are stupid in the first place. Instead of energy rating why not just have energy use directly?! Similar to how refrigerators have noise levels directly in dB, not in some imaginary regulatory unit.

In addition, many people hate highly-energy-efficient washing machines, as the washing cycles takes hours... efficient in energy, but inefficient in human life.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by untog on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @06:23AM (#21123827)
> In addition, many people hate highly-energy-efficient washing machines, as the washing cycles takes hours... efficient in energy, but inefficient in human life.

That's literally the reason for governments to regulate this kind of thing, though. When everyone looks at things through the lens of their own personal life... what's the big deal? Just one person using more energy. But when every person does it, it is a big deal. So government acts to force a level playing field for all. Everyone ignores the cumulative good and instead focuses on the inconvenience to their personal life.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by tomp on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @09:38AM (#21125163)
Sure lets ban cars and planes too. /s

That's obviously the wrong solution. The correct solution is to price things correctly. If energy is precious, increase energy prices. Some people will choose to fly, others will choose to have faster washing cycles...

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by untog on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @09:54AM (#21125316)
> Some people will choose to fly, others will choose to have faster washing cycles...

And all will damage the climate? "Increase energy prices" just means that rich people will be able to continue to engage in undesirable behaviour while the poor will not. Why is that a desirable income? Why should a poor person have to pay more to heat their home in winter so that a rich person can wash their clothes more quickly? Not all energy use is equal.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by tomp on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @09:58AM (#21125368)
Sure, there are solutions for this. Luxury taxes, tiered use (first 4L of water per day free!), properly priced externalities (e.g. a Corvette is taxed more than a Peugeot because there's more CO2 exhaust, cow meat is taxed more than chicken because of CH4... companies will adjust, new tech will be developed), ... but yeah, unless you straight hate the rich, then the rich will be able to do more things than the poor - that's kind of the point of being rich (and unless you ban all "undesirable" behaviour, that also means the rich will be able to do more of that than the poor).

I'm mainly just against the idea that shorter wash cycles are less desirable than airplane rides.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by dagw on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @09:55AM (#21125337)
Why should a poor person have to pay more to heat their home in winter so that a rich person can wash their clothes more quickly

That can be solved with tiered pricing. Your first N kWh a month are cheap and then the price ramps up quickly.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by untog on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @09:57AM (#21125361)
But it doesn't solve the pollution problem. Why should a person be allowed to pollute more just because they have more money? Why is their convenience more important than everyone else's well being?
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by dagw on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @10:08AM (#21125466)
Why should a person be allowed to pollute more just because they have more money?

As long as we make them pay a significantly large enough multiple of the externality costs they're inflicting I'm OK with that, especially if that money then gets reinvested into further solving the problem.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by w1nst0nsm1th on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @01:00PM (#21127727)
And some people value healthcare better than others...

So let's price healthcare the right price for those who value good healthcare, like in the US, where the average Joe avoid going to the doctor, even when he is insured, or go bankrupt when he have to go to ER for a simple broken leg or die from diabetes because he can't pay the monthly 1300$ for medication and save on insuline shots.

Sure "Price Regulation" seems to be the solution.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by tomp on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @01:13PM (#21127890)
I never said "price regulation". The government should take steps to ensure things are priced fairly and (even more important) transparently. That will look different for different markets, products, market structures (sometimes the government needs to break up the monopoly), ... The situation in healthcare is very complicated and has a lot of moving parts, but the situation in energy less so (AFAIK), it's just that some externalities are not accounted for at all. Opposing that you have lobbyists (e.g. oil) and ideologically-driven players (e.g. some people want to ban meat).
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by martin_a on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @06:37AM (#21123897)
> In addition, many people hate highly-energy-efficient washing machines, as the washing cycles takes hours... efficient in energy, but inefficient in human life.

Actually this can be a feature. Often enough I fill the machine in the morning, set it up to start in 3 or 4 or even 6 hours, go to work and when I come home the machine has just finished and I'm ready to put the clothes up for drying.

It's more a question of planning than anything else.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by AnssiH on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @06:58AM (#21124027)
Quite off-topic now, but my new LG machine has a programmable end time instead of start time, making this kind of scheduling easier :)

That's a kind of feature that I didn't know I wanted before I had it.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by martin_a on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @07:44AM (#21124238)
Ah, interesting idea, saves you the calculations in the morning. ;-)

My baking oven has something like this, too. I still wonder how that is supposed to work, though: I have to dial in temperature etc. before, then set it to finish at a specific time. Seems impractical for rolls oder pizza, but maybe I'm missing something on that feature.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by distances on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @04:43PM (#21130379)
I don't know where you live, but beware: if the washing machine broke in this situation and flooded the apartment, you may be found negligent and denied insurance coverage.

I don't know how common this is, but I've been taught to use dishwasher and washing machine only when I'm home myself.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by iknowstuff on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @08:42PM (#21132430)
> Instead of energy rating why not just have energy use directly?!

My guess is they probably ran a study and found that the majority of people were better steered towards energy efficient appliances by a big A or A+ rating than they would have been by comparing kWh.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by makomk on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @07:26AM (#21124153)
The other shortcoming is that the way that washing machine manufacturers have achieved those energy ratings is by making their wash cycles longer and slower, effectively making them less useful to consumers.
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @07:37AM (#21124200)
Long cycles are great for getting stuff out. It's the lukewarm "hot" water that people take issue with.

Energy ratings for washing machines are kind of stupid in the first place since they depend so strongly on how you use the machine and the efficiency of your hot water supply. The electricity used on the motor is fairly negligible.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by makomk on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @08:08AM (#21124388)
That's one of the other side effects of the energy ratings - pretty much no washing machine in Europe these days has a hot fill inlet anymore, so any hot water used by the machine is produced internally using the electric heating element.
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by adrianN on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @05:22AM (#21123523)
The energy rating problem could have been easily avoided by giving out labels according to consumption percentiles. The top 10% of the models on the market get an A, etc. But I assume that manufacturers wouldn't be happy about that.
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by twanvl on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @05:48AM (#21123656)
These ratings would change over time, so an A+ rating in 2017 would not be the same as an A+ rating in 2019. I think that is very confusing. Is a second hand A rated model better than a new D rated one? Who knows.
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by adrianN on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @05:51AM (#21123673)
I find that perfectly fine. Why should an old model retain its A rating when in fact it consumes a lot of energy compared to a newer model? Just print the actual consumption on the sticker to make comparisons between older stickers and newer stickers possible.
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by Tomte on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @07:25AM (#21124150)
Nobody updates those ratings, though.
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by mehs on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @05:38AM (#21123600)
That means energy efficiency rating will change by date, A rated product of last year could be different (could be better or worse) by this year's A rated product. Can't we just use "numbers" instead?
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by epanchin on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @05:34AM (#21123581)
That would encourage manufacturers to lower the efficiency of non flagship models. How about just regrading every few years? Potentially add a number to the start.
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by adrianN on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @05:58AM (#21123707)
That's a good point. You could avoid that problem by giving grades relative to the best product on the market, e.g. anything that doesn't use more than 10% more than the most efficient model on the market gets an A.

Regrading every year seems to be about the same as what I propose. I guess the actual numbers used for the current rating are based on actual efficiencies of the models on the market when the regulation was introduced.

Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by tomatocracy on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @12:26PM (#21127298)
Only if consumers pay any attention to energy efficiency labels. I strongly suspect that with washing machines and dryers, they simply ignore them and look instead at the other features (particularly load size and cycle timing) and the price.
Re:EU brings in 'right to repair' rules for appliances by blue_devil on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @05:30AM (#21123562)
Exactly. They are willing to regulate, but slowly, inefficiently, and timidly.