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Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by s3r3nity on Friday September 27, 2019 @10:50AM (#21092608)
Not sure what the reasoning was at the time, but I can provide some personal thoughts on the idea - so don't take it as representative of everyone who is center-right like myself.

I don't trust a government entity to be "independent" or "non-partisan." The rule of thumb I use is "would I trust this government entity if my respective political party is only in control ~50% of the time?"

Some other folks in the threads already mentioned this, but as one example: the Obama campaign was pretty close to the Facebooks / Googles of the world - meaning that there could be a scenario that this OTA office was staffed fully with ex-Googlers or the like, almost like a lobbying firm would do. On one hand, they're fully qualified and (probably) very knowledgeable; on the other hand, I wouldn't trust that the office would provide a fair assessment into regulating those tech companies.

EDIT: grammar / more precise vocabulary

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by atonse on Friday September 27, 2019 @10:56AM (#21092675)
As a DC Area resident for 25+ years, I have met many federal government employees, some in professional settings, and many in casual settings.

They remind me of Journalists. Most journalists I've met are not centrists in their personal lives. But in their professional lives, they try (they're not perfect, they are human) to stay impartial, but some of your bias will definitely leak into things.

But most federal agencies are simply too large and bureaucratic for individuals to push their own political agendas. (Not talking about the leadership that's appointed by each administration, but career employees). And it's been my informal experience that their hands are too often (rightly) tied by the laws and regulations of the day, in exactly what they can do. So this idea of non-partisan people truly being partisan is often true at an individual level, but generally false at an agency level.

And they do take the non-partisan side of their jobs very seriously.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:14AM (#21092866)
As someone who grew up in D.C. I disagree with this. Federal government employees try not to be overtly political, but they have a world view that is not necessarily representative of the country as a whole. You're going to find a lot more anarchists in Texas or Oregon than D.C. You're going to find a lot more religious people in Iowa than D.C. Folks in D.C.--on both sides of the aisle--tend to be predisposed to believing in the superiority of the educated upper middle class, seeing government as the solution to various problems, etc.

I'd say the same thing about journalists. 90%+ of journalists are democrats. (Overwhelmingly, white and male democrats.) They try to chart a course of "objectivity" within an overall left-leaning Overton window. For example, 32% of Democrats are "extremely proud to be an American" versus 74% of Republicans: https://news.gallup.com/poll/236420/record-low-extremely-pro.... It is impossible for such differences in world view not to affect your article selection and tone when it comes to areas like foreign policy, terrorism, national security, etc.

I should point out that I'm not talking about blatant partisanship. Judges, for example, seek to be objective. That doesn't mean that their world views don't affect their decisions. Justice Kagan has said that American judges--across the spectrum--are textualists most of the time. How would they approach deciding a Constitutional case in the U.K., which doesn't have a written constitution? Policymaking and reporting are no different. Everything you write that has any substance at all must have an internal logic. It will makes assumptions, and inferences about cause and effect. It is impossible to be "objective" with respect to that reasoning process or those assumptions.

For example, what is an "objective" article on AOC's new proposal for nationwide rent control? Do you think someone who believes deeply in markets would write the same article on that proposal as someone who believes that governments can legislate outcomes? I think a market-oriented person struggling to write an objective article about that proposal would either come across as partisan, or would have to write something utterly vacuous. It's one thing not to expressly take sides. It's entirely another to divorce yourself from your own modes of reasoning and assumptions about how the world works.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by birken on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:16PM (#21094098)
> I'd say the same thing about journalists. 90%+ of journalists are democrats.

I can't believe in all the responses nobody has challenged this statement. What is your source for this? Based on exit polls, in aggregate white men are heavily republican, and college educated white men are still republican by over 20 points. This seems like an extraordinary claim.

And for one tangible data point, in 2012, wikipedia shows 158 newspaper endorsing the democratic candidate, and 112 newspaper endorsing the republican candidate [1]. Obviously not a perfect metric, but that is ~58% of newspaper endorsing the democratic candidate.

Even in 2016, when the Republican candidate was specifically anti-journalists, only 69% of newspapers endorsed the democratic candidate [2].

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsements_in_the_...

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsements_in_the_...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:03PM (#21094548)
I mis-remembered the statistic a bit. (Sorry too late to edit, but breaking down the numbers here.)

7% of journalists identify as republican, versus 28% identifying as democrat. The majority identify as independent: https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/05/survey-7-percen....

So 80% of journalists who disclose a political affiliation identify as Democrat, and 20% identify as republican.

To put that into perspective: nationally, 27% of people identify as republican, versus 29% as democrat: https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx. Among the general population self-identified republicans and democrats are roughly evenly represented, but among journalists democrats outnumber republicans 4:1. I would expect the independents to break along the same proportions when it comes to voting.

Another way to look at it is to compare journalists to various demographic groups: https://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-af.... Journalists are less likely to self-identify as republicans than: urban voters, jewish voters, millenials, asian voters, and hispanic voters.

That is particularly interesting because journalists are more likely to be white and male than the general population, or democrats as a group. Therefore, their party identification is particularly unusual when compared to other white men.

On other metrics: a Texas A&M poll of finance journalists found that 58% described themselves as very or somewhat liberal, versus 4.4% saying they were very or somewhat conservative: https://www.dailywire.com/news/462-financial-journalists-wer....

Nationally, however, 37% of people say they are very or somewhat conservative, versus 24% who say they are very or somewhat liberal: https://news.gallup.com/poll/188129/conservatives-hang-ideol.... That makes the polled financial journalists 2.3x more likely to self-identify as liberal, and 1/8 as likely to self identify as conservative as the general population. That means the ratio of conservatives to liberals is 20x higher in that pool of journalists than in the general population.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by nkurz on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:26PM (#21094812)
While we are picking apart your statistics, I wondered about your claim that journalists are "Overwhelmingly, white and male democrats".

From what I can tell journalists at major US papers have about a 60:40 male to female ratio: https://www.statista.com/statistics/625800/newspaper-journal.... I also found this interesting source which seem to say that most newsrooms are about 80% white: https://googletrends.github.io/asne/.

My quick conclusion is that if we thus assume that male, white, and Democrat are independently distributed, we find that 60% * 80% * 30% = 15% of journalists are white males that identify as Democrats. While this is probably the most common combination of these particular characteristics, it doesn't feel particularly overwhelming.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by kelnos on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:13AM (#21100374)
> 7% of journalists identify as republican, versus 28% identifying as democrat. The majority identify as independent

> So 80% of journalists who disclose a political affiliation identify as Democrat, and 20% identify as republican.

That is an exceptionally misleading way of presenting/interpreting that data. 50% if journalists identify as independent. That is a political affiliation. You can't just ignore that group.

I find it encouraging that over half of journalists don't identify with the two main, polarized, often extremist political parties.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by listenallyall on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:39PM (#21094950)
Your 2016 reference states Clinton 500, Trump 28. (plus 30 "Not Trump") Not sure how you get 69% from that.

>> What is your source for this?

On an individual level, more than 90% of journalists' personal donations went to Clinton. $382,000 to $14,000. https://www.cjr.org/covering_the_election/campaign_donations...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by birken on Friday September 27, 2019 @04:10PM (#21095810)
In the 2016 campaign I referenced Clinton endorsements vs total endorsements. "No endorsement" received over 3x as many endorsements as the republican candidate. Also don't oversample from the 2016 election. One of the candidates literally referred to journalists as "enemy of the state". Probably not shocking that many journalistic outlets would rather endorse nobody than a candidate like that. Even going back 4 years you did not see that pattern.

According to Wikipedia, in 2004 the democratic candidate got 52% of the newspaper endorsements. In 2008 the democratic candidate got 62%. These are far from perfect measures but again, if 90% of journalists were in fact democrats then my guess is the number of newspapers that endorsed democratic candidates would be much closer to 90%, and it clearly isn't.

The total donations really aren't really convincing because clearly the vast majority of journalists donate to nobody, so you really don't know exactly what the preference is for the median journalist. I'd also be interested in the stats for 2012, 2008 and previous elections before making any conclusions.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @04:45PM (#21096102)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsements_in_the_...

> As of November 4, 2008, Barack Obama had received more than twice as many publication endorsements as John McCain; in terms of circulation, the ratio was more than 3 to 1, according to the detailed tables below.

By circulation, it was like > 75% Obama versus McCain. Assuming journalist employment is roughly proportional to circulation, that suggests that a similar percentage of journalists are Democrats.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by leroy_masochist on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:54AM (#21093303)
> Folks in D.C.--on both sides of the aisle--tend to be predisposed to believing in the superiority of the educated upper middle class, seeing government as the solution to various problems, etc.

This is spot-on. They also tend to think that their high level of visibility into their highly focused sector of government bureaucracy (wherever it is they happen to work) has granted them broad and trenchant insight into the right answers for domestic and foreign policy. This attitude tends to come with a healthy side portion of disdain for the ability of non-DC people to comprehend any degree of political nuance.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by atonse on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:09PM (#21093478)
Good point on the AOC proposal. I don't know, since I haven't heard of it, nor have I read too many articles about that specific proposal.

Everything I've read about rising home prices has to do with supply/demand and the disruptive nature of AirBNB etc.

But if you as a journalist are talking about AOC's proposal, your main job is to communicate her proposal to the masses, your secondary job is to talk about why it may or may not work.

It's similar to any Republican counter proposal, if there were one that wasn't just based on dogmas like supply-side economics or "market will fix everything". You communicate the proposal and then talk about potentially how parts of it wouldn't work.

Tribalism is shit and really ruins a lot of these interesting debates. But I don't see true tribalism in places like the NYT. My bigger complaint with institutions like the NYT is that they're made of the same elites they're reporting on, so they aren't able to be truly objective.

Organizations like the Intercept do a much better job of "fuck you everyone, I'm going to expose you" than someone like the NYT. But that's not a republican/democrat thing. That's a lack of diversity (diversity of background, not skin color) problem in their staff.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by repolfx on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:41PM (#21093799)
But if you as a journalist are talking about AOC's proposal, your main job is to communicate her proposal to the masses, your secondary job is to talk about why it may or may not work.

Journalists don't believe it's their job to talk about why something may or may not work, but they really want to. They have a couple of ways to do that.

One is to select "experts" to comment on a story who agrees with the journalist. For any topic of enough importance you can usually find people who will present things your way, even if others would disagree.

Another is to use a library of common phrases that create an impression in the mind of the reader without actually committing to anything concrete. For instance:

• Mr Smith was under fire last night after proposing <X>

• A new idea from Mr Smith has been creating excitement after he launched <X> last night

• According to experts, <Y>

• <Z>, according to analysts

etc etc.

It'd be more honest if journalists wrote "X said Y and I think he's a douchebag because Z" but that'd make them, in their eyes, mere bloggers, so they rely on more subtle manipulations instead.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by losvedir on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:56PM (#21093900)
This sounds related to the whole "Republicans pounce" [0] thing.

[0] https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/when-repub...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by themacguffinman on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:06PM (#21093985)
It's absolutely a journalist's job to talk about why something may or may not work. News without context or analysis isn't journalism. Journalists have a duty to inform, and a basic retelling of facts is about as informative to the public as a basic retelling of statistics to non-statisticians. Framing this analysis as "subtle manipulations" is disingenuous regardless of how flawed/biased news analysis may be, which is about as flawed/biased as any analysis can be.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @04:49PM (#21096133)
> Framing this analysis as "subtle manipulations" is disingenuous regardless of how flawed/biased news analysis may be, which is about as flawed/biased as any analysis can be.

But it is subtle manipulation. How many articles have you read about failing schools or school funding challenges, and how often have they mentioned that the U.S. spends among the most in the world per student for K-12 education? As you say, presenting news without context or analysis isn't journalism. But the minute you start picking facts for context, or analyzing the facts, you're inherently incorporating your personal views.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by themacguffinman on Friday September 27, 2019 @07:47PM (#21097279)
> But the minute you start picking facts for context, or analyzing the facts, you're inherently incorporating your personal views.

That's not "subtle manipulation", that's bias. Calling it "subtle manipulation" disingenuously implies that journalists unscrupulously distort or change the news. Context & analysis is inherently biased, no surprises there, but you're approaching substance-free cynicism when you say stuff like "Journalists don't believe it's their job to talk about why something may or may not work, but they really want to."

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by repolfx on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:21AM (#21100140)
Journalists are qualified in nothing and can't possibly have any weight on the question of whether something will or will not work. That's why they always speak through experts. Why would anyone care what a journalist thinks? Their job is to journal, not tell people what to do.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by themacguffinman on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:31PM (#21102689)
They don't tell people what to do. Even your example doesn't show journalists telling people what to do or show them sharing their personal thoughts on the matter. Journalists are qualified in reporting, which includes collecting, analyzing/contextualizing, and presenting relevant new facts, which is exactly what they are correctly doing when using your common library of phrases. Naturally, such reporting is prone to bias, and you may not agree with what is presented, but that isn't the same as "subtle manipulation", and it isn't the same as telling people what to do or think.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by amalcon on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:15PM (#21093543)
> I'd say the same thing about journalists. 90%+ of journalists are democrats. (Overwhelmingly, white and male democrats.)

> For example, 32% of Democrats are "extremely proud to be an American" versus 74% of Republicans

Disregarding for a moment that this is a super weird question to use as a barometer, this is not sound statistical reasoning. Journalists make up a very small, and very biased (in the statistical sense), cross section of the democratic party. Therefore, their answers to a given question won't move the overall answers very much.

It is like observing that 99%+ of iPhones are sometimes used to browse the web, and that a majority of web-browsing devices run Google Chrome. You can't infer from this that a majority of iPhones run Chrome (or, at least, not very strongly).

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by asokoloski on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:41AM (#21093153)
I suppose the question is not whether these people are a completely accurate representation of the country as a whole, but whether they will effectively serve as a dampening factor on corporate lobbyists. We shouldn't compare them against an unreachable ideal, but ask if they'll be an improvement on what we have now. I think they probably will.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:58AM (#21093349)
Do we want them to "serve as a dampening factor on corporate lobbyists?"

https://news.gallup.com/poll/187919/big-government-named-big...

> When asked to choose among big government, big labor and big business, Americans overwhelmingly name big government as the biggest threat to the country in the future. The 69% choosing big government is down slightly from a high of 72% in 2013, the last time Gallup asked the question, but is still one of the highest percentages choosing big government in Gallup's 50-year trend.

As of 2015, 70% of Americans viewed big government as the "biggest threat" versus just 25% listing big businesses.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by jazzyk on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:39PM (#21093777)
>As of 2015, 70% of Americans viewed big government as the "biggest threat" versus just 25% listing big businesses.

Wherever the government tries to "regulate" - unprecedented wealth transfer from ordinary people to special interests follows: the health-care(?) mafia, the higher education mafia, etc. Always sold as "think of the elderly/children".

Big Government -> Lobbyists (corruption) -> Corporatism

(In the US, Europe is a bit different, because lobbying is not as predatory)

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by JediWing on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:08PM (#21096313)
The problem as it's explained is that those being regulated are the ONLY ones presenting informed commentary on the issue.

Surely hearing a perspective from someone striving (at the very least) to be objective rather than ONLY hearing from someone who has clear bias on the issue (the corporation to be regulated) is more likely to be a good thing than a bad thing.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by jonnybgood on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:41PM (#21093797)
Big business can be easily qualified. But how do you qualify big government? What is not a big government? Is there such a thing as an objectively small government i.e. not attached to a political ideology?
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by jackcosgrove on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:38PM (#21094942)
> Is there such a thing as an objectively small government i.e. not attached to a political ideology?

Many local governments are like this, with explicitly non-partisan elections (although partisanship may be implicit). More likely, the powers and resources of the local government are limited such that there's no "slack" for partisanship, and they are literally just trying to keep the lights on.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by tehjoker on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:34PM (#21093735)
There is no evaluation without a worldview, such a thing is preposterous. However, there is something to be said for having advisors that are not literally being actively paid by the people you are trying to regulate. Ideology is one thing (it's at least honest and heartfelt), not having any advice is another thing.

Using Google's people is like using the lawyer of the guy you're suing.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by snagglegaggle on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:03PM (#21093415)
I feel much the same. D.C. and even a lot of political positions are a bit divorced from common life. In my experience it is seen as a lack of knowledge of the cost of things, and the hardships of most of the US.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by unethical_ban on Saturday September 28, 2019 @12:50PM (#21101389)
When making complex decisions affecting the lives of millions, or handling issues that require deep subject matter expertise, is an educated upper middle class not better at making decisions than an uneducated lower class? (or any uneducated person)?

That isn't to say the lower class has no say in their government - it is why "democracy is the worst form of government, besides all the others". But having an intellectual, technical team of "trying-not-to-be-partisans" helping elected officials make decisions is a good thing, and you make it sound like a bad thing.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by the_watcher on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:44PM (#21095017)
> Federal government employees try not to be overtly political, but they have a world view that is not necessarily representative of the country as a whole.

There's also the simple incentives argument: Why don't people trust lobbyists? Because they're paid by people/companies/organizations/etc who have (at the very least arguably) a vested interest in a given outcome, so it's hard to trust their motives. Wouldn't the same be true of a government office of "experts"? Wouldn't they have the same incentives to advance the agenda of those who keep them employed?

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by tptacek on Friday September 27, 2019 @03:37PM (#21095538)
You should be a little bit more careful generalizing from that Gallup poll; fewer Democrats are "extremely proud" to be American now, for pretty obvious reasons, but the gap was far smaller a few years ago.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by jasonlotito on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:53AM (#21093293)
> As someone who grew up in D.C. I disagree with this. Federal government employees try not to be overtly political, but they have a world view that is not necessarily representative of the country as a whole.

That's not what the comment was referring to in the slightest. You're disagreeing that water is wet because fire is hot. They aren't completely different things.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by claudeganon on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:27AM (#21093005)
Within the actual, global spectrum of political philosophies, the difference between American Democrats and Republicans is remarkably small, especially in comparison to many European parliaments. Just look at the consensus about and subsequent lack of accountability for the Iraq War as an example.

What do you think is an actual, meaningful consequence of something like “90% of journalists being Democrats.” In all the domains you cite, I see a general consensus around a right-wing perspective about America‘s place in the world.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by AnthonyMouse on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:36AM (#21093100)
Not only are they biased, most of the bias crosses party lines so that many opinions are never represented there? That would be worse rather than better, wouldn't it?
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:50AM (#21093267)
I think the trope that Americans are categorically right-wing compared to Europe is false. Just in 2017, the party that came in second in the Dutch elections proposed to ban the Quran and shut down all mosques. Le Pen, whose party is the offshoot of an actual Nazi party, won a third of the French vote. In the US, the idea of making English the national language is not something even Republicans push these days. In France, the idea of French as the national language is nearly universally supported. New Zealand and Ireland recently got rid of birthright citizenship. Attitudes that are part of the "mainstream right" in much of Europe would get you labeled a white supremacist in the U.S.

On the economic front, U.S. Democrats are to the left of the European (and Canadian and Australian) center in many respects. Macron is a "socialist" that is trying to privatize SNCF. Sweden is extremely market oriented, has school vouchers, etc. The EU keeps pressing forward on privatization efforts in various sectors like rail and utilities. Trump was late to the game compared to France, Germany, Sweden, etc., in terms of cutting corporate taxes.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by claudeganon on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:21PM (#21093604)
> Attitudes that are part of the "mainstream right" in much of Europe would get you labeled a white supremacist in the U.S.

That’s because Europe has a different historical and political context than the US though? Many of those policies would be correctly described as white supremacist if advocated for within the US context because the US is historically a white supremacist country and has organized much of its politics along those lines. In Europe, they would probably be understood as “fascistic” because, as you’ve correctly identified, many of their advocates descend from this ideology and its history on the continent.

> On the economic front, U.S. Democrats are to the left of the European

Historically, Democrats have supported charter schools, privatization, and kept in place corporate tax cuts passed by Republicans, so I’m not sure this bears scrutiny. While there is an emergent left flank of the Democratic party, it is deeply at odds with the party elite, their institutions, apparatuses, and is stymied by them at most turns.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:47PM (#21095052)
> That’s because Europe has a different historical and political context than the US though? Many of those policies would be correctly described as white supremacist if advocated for within the US context because the US is historically a white supremacist country and has organized much of its politics along those lines.

That’s a weird bit of bootstrapping. France colonized Muslim countries in North Africa, and then when people came to France from those countries the French insisted they learn French, banned religious symbols like hijab, etc. French language and cultural purity absolutely is a sort of at least cultural supremacy.

Likewise the success of right wing parties in Europe. They’re putatively nationalistic, but the strong anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant sentiments make clear they rest heavily on cultural and ethnic supremacy.

> Historically, Democrats have supported charter schools, privatization, and kept in place corporate tax cuts passed by Republicans, so I’m not sure this bears scrutiny. While there is an emergent left flank of the Democratic party, it is deeply at odds with the party elite, their institutions, apparatuses, and is stymied by them at most turns.

Democrats have a strong “party of FDR” trend, which is an anti-market, pro-regulation viewpoint. I’d characterize Clinton and Obama as exceptions, with the “Green New Deal” being a return to the norm. Meanwhile, Canada, Australia, and the EU have pushed ahead with deregulation and privatization under both liberal and conservative governments.

Canada, for example, is basically an example of Clinton/Gingrich’s government trimming and “welfare to work” being applied for 30 years: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTNKL...

Trudeau, a liberal, continues to promise corporate tax cuts and deregulation. Public transit in many european cities is opened up to competitive bidding. Stockholm’s subway is privately operated. I’m not aware of any privately operated subways in the US. France has extensive privatized water utilities. Europe continues to embrace markets and deregulation at a level Democrats have not done since Clinton.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by pgcj_poster on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:47PM (#21093841)
Also, the same policy can occupy a different place on the right-left spectrum in different countries. For example, as an American that's lived in France for a short time, I oppose English as the official language in the US, but I support French as an official language in France (although I might argue that other languages, like Occitan, should be given equal status as well).

Why? Well, I don't think English is in any danger. People are learning English all over the world, and I've never in my entire time in the US had someone try to speak any language other the English to me. On the other hand, French, while still a very important language, is clearly on the decline compared to where it was a couple hundred years ago. Lots of French musicians these days write songs mostly in English. I'd be sad if the French language lost its central position in French society, and I think it actually is important for the government to try to stop that from happening.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by pgcj_poster on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:28PM (#21093682)
The person you're replying to was saying that range of political views between Democrats and Republicans is smaller than the range of views in Europe. As you've noted, there are some Nazi-adjacent parties winning elections in Europe. There are also some communist parties that have seats in European assemblies. That seems to support the idea that the difference between Republicans and Democrats is relatively small.

Also, I don't think that even the "we want to shut down mosques" right-wing of Europe wants to eg. get rid of socialized healthcare.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by brmgb on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:53PM (#21093883)
No offense but Le Pen party is absolutely not an offshoot of a nazi party. The idea that you could casually label a third of France as nazy is strongly offensive.

Le Pen actually tried to join the resistance as a teenager. It is a strongly nationalist and protectionist party which used to be/is xenophobic but it has nothing to do with the Nazi. Trump idea are more radical in a lot of way. Let's not forget he suggested actually building a wall at the border. Also Macron is rightfully seen as center right in France and certainly not as a socialist.

French has been the official language of France since 1539. Having French as the official language is hardly a rightwing position. The question of having an official language is only seen as rightwing in the USA because it's done to spit the large part of the population speaking Spanish. This is purely cultural. It's a bit like supporting gun regulation which is seen as left wing in the USA while not supporting it is seen as being a lunatic in the rest of the world.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by tptacek on Friday September 27, 2019 @03:36PM (#21095520)
Le Pen's father, the founder of the French National Front party, was a Holocaust denier who was forced to pay settlements over his statements. There's not "no" nexus between Le Pen and Nazism.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by brmgb on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:53AM (#21099662)
Le Pen father is an antisemite, a racist and a generally despicable person who thought and was condamned for saying that the Holocaust is a mere "detail of history", not a denier.

That doesn't in any way make his party a offshoot of the Nazi party especially in its modern form. You might be a mere American and therefore throwing the word Nazi casually like a low grade insult. That doesn't justify implying that a third of France is voting for the Nazi party.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:14AM (#21100112)
https://www.ft.com/content/967daaae-2412-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0...

> The National Front party leader warned over the Easter weekend that French “civilisation” was under threat as she pledged to suspend all legal immigration and protect the French way of life, toning down her plan to take France out of the euro.

> “Give us France back, damn it!” the far-right candidate demanded at a rally in Paris on Monday night as her supporters chanted: “This is our home!”

> In comments clearly aimed at France’s Muslim population, she said: “In France, we drink wine whenever we want. In France we do not force women to wear the veil because they are impure . . . In France, we get to decide who deserves to become French.”

Who are the people whose home France is?)

[dead]
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:03PM (#21093417)
Your view of modern republicans is outdated. Many Republicans are non-religious like myself and align themselves closer to the views of the founding fathers. We simply see the rampant corruption in government and propose it is a better solution to limit governmental power as opposed to increasing it.

If I were to paint democrats in a similar manner they would all be bike lock wielding liberal arts professors and that would be unfair.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:13PM (#21094058)
The difference is that these things are written into Republic party platforms and are not merely the views of individual Democrats, and the average Republican voter absolutely picks up on this. Thus, even if bureaucrats considers themselves Republican, they appear to be Democrats to these voters.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:30PM (#21094235)
What party platform document are you referencing? I've never seen that.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by hdctambien on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:55PM (#21094482)
I believe he is refering to this[1]. Each party publishes one each election year.

[1] https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FIN...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:07PM (#21094588)
Care to quote the passage? Its 60 some odd pages long.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:42PM (#21094978)
"religious individuals and institutions can educate young people, receive government benefits, and participate in public debates without having to check their religious beliefs at the door."

"The United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is a political mechanism, not an unbiased scientific institution. Its unreliability is reflected in its intolerance toward scientists and others who dissent from its orthodoxy."

The scientists like Spencer and Legates who "dissent from its orthodoxy" that the GOP trots out for its voters actually dissent due to their religious beliefs. https://www.cornwallalliance.org/2009/05/01/signers-of-an-ev...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:02PM (#21096267)
> "religious individuals and institutions can educate young people, receive government benefits, and participate in public debates without having to check their religious beliefs at the door."

That's not directed to science. It's directed to the separate issue of public education being a vehicle for eliminating religion from childrens' education, and replacing religious social values with government values developed by education boards. It's a legitimate concern when the government is deciding how you socialize your kids, and leaves you few avenues for opting out. (Also, it's a model that's by and large uncontroversial in most of Europe.)

As to your second quote, it appears 10 pages later. Is there some sort of connection you're trying to draw between the two?

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:27PM (#21097498)
> As to your second quote, it appears 10 pages later. Is there some sort of connection you're trying to draw between the two?

Both are examples of pushing faith above science, which is the whole point of my argument.

> public education being a vehicle for eliminating religion

Public education does not do anything to eliminate religion except where they disagree, as in evolution vs. Biblical creationism.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @03:28PM (#21095469)
That seems a little post hoc and doesn't mention teaching creationism in public schools. I get there are things in there that people disagree with but I was looking for the point made previously. Simply citing a large document and not having read it isn't arguing in good faith.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:23PM (#21097474)
I didn't cite that large document. Claiming that I did is not arguing in good faith.

The particular example of creationism comes from the Texas GOP's platform. https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/06/28/the-texas-repu...

You can certainly see echoes of it in the national platform. That is no mistake.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:43PM (#21097568)
That article is from 2012 and is about the Texas GOP. It seems like this claim was not true.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @09:57PM (#21097873)
I never claimed it was in the national platform. You are once again arguing in bad faith.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:05AM (#21099489)
I don't live in Texas in 2012, so that isn't part of my parties platform. I suppose you agree with every element of every state democrat platform ever published. Well post Jim Crow of course.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:10PM (#21102895)
Texas is the largest GOP state, and as the other poster showed, that faith based stuff is mirrored at the national level.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by notJim on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:29PM (#21094842)
> Many Republicans are non-religious like myself and align themselves closer to the views of the founding fathers. We simply see the rampant corruption in government and propose it is a better solution to limit governmental power as opposed to increasing it.

Surely the nomination of Donald Trump in 2016 should call into question how large of a subset of the Republican party this represents.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by whatshisface on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:50PM (#21095085)
Republicans wouldn't elect the Trump that Democrat media outlets show, they would elect the Trump that Republican media outlets show. Listen to a Republican describe Trump and you'll hear about someone a sane person could plausibly vote for. Would a Republican vote for a womanizing Russia-serving friend of Epstien? No way! A charismatic business-oriented people's man? You bet!
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @03:21PM (#21095407)
> Would a Republican vote for a womanizing Russia-serving friend of Epstien?

If the alternative is a Democrat? You bet.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by whatshisface on Friday September 27, 2019 @04:05PM (#21095772)
A Republican would probably be willing to vote for a Democrat as Democrats perceive them, but not a Democrat as Republicans perceive them.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @07:30PM (#21097189)
Probably not. I grew up during Clinton’s “welfare to work” and continuing Reagan’s deregulation and trimming federal employment rolls. I always thought it was ridiculous that Republicans called Democrats “socialists.” Now when you have the crowd boo-ing candidates for saying socialism isn’t the answer, I’m not sure Republicans are wrong about what Democrats want. Maybe it was just the shadow of Reagan and Newt Gingrich that kept things on the rails for a couple of cycles.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:34PM (#21097521)
Those booing crowds don't even know what socialism is and have likely confused it with Scandinavian-style social democracy. I can count on one hand the number of actual socialists I have ever met in the US, so that position is absolutely fringe.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @03:42PM (#21095582)
A Democrat who sold uranium to Russians and whose husband is a womanizer and of a very good friend of Epistein no less.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:33PM (#21097517)
> A Democrat who sold uranium to Russians

The Democrat you're referring to never owned any Uranium to sell.

> whose husband is a womanizer and of a very good friend of Epistein no less.

A fault of association with a womanizing friend of Epstein vs. a fault of actually being a womanizing friend of Epstein's does not seem like a very strong reason. The real reason they voted for Trump is the R next to his name.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:44PM (#21097579)
>The Democrat you're referring to never owned any Uranium to sell.

Yet millions flowed to her foundation upon the completion of that sale[0], getting paid for something you don't own is worse.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:08PM (#21102879)
Millions flowed to her foundation before the sale, too. Claiming she was paid for that deal is conspiracy theory lunacy, no different from Biblical creationism and climate science denialism. https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/facts-uranium-one/
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by s3r3nity on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:06AM (#21092776)
> But most federal agencies are simply too large and bureaucratic for individuals to push their own political agendas.

I think I agree with you, both in principle and from similar anecdotes I have from friends & colleagues in the area.

The leadership piece to which you allude worries me, but also the idea that to have a successful non-partisan government office you need to invest a lot of tax dollars to make it SO big & bureaucratic that any individual can't have significant impact makes me a tad nervous from a perspective of favoring smaller government.

Therefore, if the trade-off is between massive, expensive government office that can have some non-zero probability of corruption OR relying on the responsibility of States & Representatives from those States to hire consultants / experts / research the issues, I'd opt for the latter.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by ianai on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:24AM (#21092968)
I don’t understand the faith in state governments. I’ve seen just how awful they can be to trust them over the federal government, in the trend. The federal is a much larger sample of people. In order to function every part of it must pass some basic acceptability requirements from the entire voting public. Meanwhile, state governments can be outright hostile toward one locality at the benefit of another through their own laws and voting practices and budgets. State and local governments are much smaller than the fed - meaning corruption and influence are bought at much lower prices than the federal. I’ve personally lived through economic downfalls brought on by local governments outlawing and fighting new industry for political power and easy votes.

I also saw my university’s tuition revenue taken from it and given to a smaller university in the state capital. All because the surrounding population hated the city hosting the university.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by AnthonyMouse on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:11PM (#21093492)
It's not that state governments have better people in them, it's that there are more of them and they have more competitive pressure. If a local government is too corrupt then people and businesses will start moving away. Which is much easier for them to do than to move to another country. And since the local government doesn't want that, they have an additional incentive on top of voting to keep the local people happy.

You also end up with more policy diversity, so that if you really hate living under the rules in one place, you at least have the option of going somewhere else. Consider whether you would rather have gay marriage legal in California and illegal in Mississippi than to have it uniformly either legal or illegal in all places, but the uniform policy is chosen by a coin flip and if it doesn't go your way then you can't override it with local policy.

The result is that some places will be more corrupt or have rules you can't stand. But some places will be less corrupt and have rules you love that you wouldn't have been able to make into national policy. And if you live somewhere with a policy you can't stand, it's much more feasible for you as an individual to actually affect the local policy. And if that's still hopeless then you have the option to move somewhere else with a different policy, which isn't possible when you impose a federal uniformity that makes 45% of people unhappy.

> State and local governments are much smaller than the fed - meaning corruption and influence are bought at much lower prices than the federal.

That's not really true, because the influence you get is in proportion to the size of the government. If you capture 1% of the federal budget, that's ~50 times larger than 1% of a state budget, so it's worth spending ~50 times more to capture it. Worse, then the regulatory capture gets greater economies of scale and becomes proportionally more available to large players than smaller ones, allowing huge corporations to more easily steamroll over small businesses and individuals. And then the rules entrenching huge incumbents are uniform so you can't avoid them by moving your small/medium business to the next town over.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by Retric on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:23PM (#21093623)
> have more competitive pressure

That's the theory, but in practice I think states have less competitive pressure. VA for example shifts massive amounts of funding from the northern part of the state. This has worked due to continuous gerrymandering that allows one party to maintain control despite statewide elections being far more competitive. In practice VA almost can't mess things up, simply by because it's so close to DC.

National elections on the other hand regularly shift power around. That provides constant pressure to adapt and improve. People may not like the FBI, but few feel it’s ineffective.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by AnthonyMouse on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:16PM (#21094684)
> That's the theory, but in practice I think states have less competitive pressure. VA for example shifts massive amounts of funding from the northern part of the state. This has worked due to continuous gerrymandering that allows one party to maintain control despite statewide elections being far more competitive.

You're talking about competition between parties rather than between states. And gerrymandering is a problem exacerbated by strong national parties, because the opposition party is then laden with positions from their party's national platform that may be locally unfavorable. Otherwise they could tailor their platform and message to something which is locally competitive in light of how the district lines are drawn, and respond accordingly if they change, reducing the incentive to redraw the lines by making it less effective.

Even then, it only moves the debate to within that party and effectively makes the primary the election. You can still get individual representatives to change their position for fear of losing their seat, with much more ease than doing the same thing at the national level.

> In practice VA almost can't mess things up, simply by because it's so close to DC.

That's kind of the point. DC is a huge outlier created by federal activity.

And it's all relative. Nothing the government of Topeka does is ever going to turn it into New York City, but they can make it better or worse than it is, which is a thing that the local people who elect them or choose to live or do business there will certainly care about.

Whereas if a change in federal policy makes things worse for the people of a given state when all of that state's federal representatives were already from the opposing party, all they can really do is whinge about it and suffer from the negative impact.

> National elections on the other hand regularly shift power around.

That's half the problem. Instead of having many localities with many different policies that are largely locally stable, allowing each person a choice in which rules they prefer to live under, you have national policy that flip flops back and forth based on who is currently in power so that at any given time some 40+% of the people are unhappy with the latest national rules, and the uncertainty makes it difficult to plan for the future.

> People may not like the FBI, but few feel it’s ineffective.

The percentage of US citizens who ever have any interaction with the FBI rounds to zero, and their role is enforcement rather than policy-making.

There are a lot of people who think the current EPA is ineffective[1][2]. And the FCC[3], and the FAA[4], and the FDA[5][6], and so on. What's the approval rating of the US Congress? Still somewhere between Comcast and dog poop?

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/26/trump-epa-ca...

[2] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-plans-to-revoke-californi...

[3] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190702/09221042510/killi...

[4] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/09/24/faa-bo...

[5] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/29/my-irb-nightmare/

[6] https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/27/perspectives/vaping-epidemic-...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by dnautics on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:57AM (#21093342)
>The federal is a much larger sample of people. In order to function every part of it must pass some basic acceptability requirements from the entire voting public.

What is the mechanism for this acceptance passing? If the VA mistreats its veterans, or has a black mold problem in a facility housing elderly patients and then covers it up how does the public vote on that. A considered response should outline both 1) how that selection might work in principle, and 2) and how it might work in light of the fact that voters care about competing interests, e.g. whether or not candidate X has a position commensurate with voters line on abortion, global warming, if the candidate has a familiar last name, if they would like to have a beer with the candidate, etc.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by ianai on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:56PM (#21093901)
Outrage on cnn or twitter, for one.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by Retric on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:17AM (#21092898)
You quickly hit massive bureaucracy at the national scale without actually being that expensive. Let’s say 4,000 people, which seems like massive overkill, costing 250k each (salary + benefits + office space etc). That’s 1 billion a year out of ~7630B total government spending.

It’s still a cost benefit analysis, but a technology equivalent to the GAO or arguably the FDA could provide significant value.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by ianai on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:41AM (#21093149)
I find all the talk about bureaucratic waste disingenuous when there are never reductions in the parts of governmental spending that benefit business directly. Ie private prisons and industrial complexes.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by excalibur on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:05AM (#21092772)
Well stated, can confirm. You are far more likely to encounter fiscal corruption than partisanship in most agencies, appointed leaders aside.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by dnautics on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:55AM (#21093313)
As someone who grew up in DC and lived there for an adult I cannot disagree with this more.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by sokoloff on Friday September 27, 2019 @10:59AM (#21092705)
> The rule of thumb I use is "would I trust this government entity if my respective political party is only in control ~50% of the time?"

I'm surprised that you'd use 50% as the threshold. I would use 0%.

There are plenty of government agencies and functions that I trust even though my affiliated party is never in control.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by _carl_jung on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:40AM (#21093138)
The UK has what are called "Non-ministerial government departments"[0]. These are government departments who aren't overseen directly by the government because they are deemed issues that live outside of the domain of the current governing party. This is in part to avoid the kind of "50% control" problems.

Does the US not have some kind of similar element?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ministerial_government_dep...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by Majromax on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:11PM (#21093495)
> Does the US not have some kind of similar element?

Not on such a widespread basis, no (exceptions exist). For example, Wikipedia lists the Crown Prosecution Service as one such UK government department, but in the US the Attorney General directly governs the Department of Justice. This led to the then-chronic debate about just who had the authority to oversee/direct the Mueller investigation.

Even when an organization is set up outside the traditional Cabinet hierarchy, its leadership is still typically appointed by the President (often with Senate confirmation), such that a new administration should quickly expect to appoint a working majority of directors.

This can also directly cause problems of governance. The Federal Election Commission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Election_Commission) is an independent agency that is responsible for administering elections law, but because of Presidental/Senate deadlock the board no longer has a quorum required to take official actions.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by Enginerrrd on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:05PM (#21094570)
Eh, Supreme Court justices, court of appeals judges, and district court judges are all lifetime appointees. Part of the theory for that is to decouple their decisions from a fear of political backlash like they might face if they had to get reelected.

Despite their many failings, I actually think this system works pretty well, and I'm always impressed at the reasoning behind supreme court rulings --even those I don't agree with.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by edraferi on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:52AM (#21093285)
Almost everything winds up as a department under the executive branch, headed by a political appointee. But exceptions exist, like the Post Office and TVA.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by AndrewKemendo on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:01PM (#21093389)
I don't trust a government entity to be "independent" or "non-partisan."

This is unfortunate perspective, but I can understand why many would have this view.

As others have stated, for the overwhelming majority of the career Civilian and Military workforce, partisanship is a third rail topic at best.

I've been in government service as a military officer or civilian for about half of my working life and being vocally partisan is just not something that is institutionally tolerated, is actively frowned upon and in certain cases unlawful.

I wonder how we could change that perception.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by skybrian on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:05AM (#21092769)
This idea that people who worked for a company can't be critical of it seems pretty unlikely to apply to Google, given all the internal political controversy they've gone through?

Maybe we should judge people for their own actions rather than who they once worked for?

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by sct202 on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:07PM (#21093457)
I think it depends who you're getting from those companies. We've seen a lot of Googlers standing up and publicly denouncing the company's practices. I suspect a lot of people would be inclined to regulate the crap out of their old employers if they were sufficiently divested. But if you're getting people who want to basically rotate to the government for a couple years and rotate back to Big Tech, that's not going to go great for us.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by tonyedgecombe on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:09AM (#21092807)
I have some sympathy with this view. My main concern is that business will always try and fill the vacuum. Who would you rather is informing politicians on climate change, the oil companies or government scientists?
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by whoisthemachine on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:35AM (#21093088)
It seems highly unlikely that because a President is elected an entire agency is replaced with people of their political belief overnight, or even in 8 years.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by mgkimsal on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:56PM (#21093896)
it may not have to be the entire agency, just the people in charge, to have a potentially quick impact.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by zzzeek on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:27PM (#21094195)
> I don't trust a government entity to be "independent" or "non-partisan."

so do you worry about the post office not delivering your mail if it's of a political nature, the fire department not showing up to put out a fire at your political parties' headquarters, cops not showing up if you're known to be of "that party" ? do these people all act in a partisan fashion throughout their day jobs ?

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by atoav on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:03PM (#21093413)
I know “I don’t trust the government” is a very popular trope in the US, but I am a bit curious how the solution to this lack of trust is always diminsishing government power instead of say trying to figure out how to properly compartmentalize or divide it?

As somebody who grew up in the german language area (Central Europe) and dealt with Nazi history and extremism for half his life, I am quite sure that a too strong government without proper division of forces is equally dangerous to a weak government that can be taken over too easily by political movements like Germany was in the late 20s.

The whole history of how the Nazis came into power is really something people should study, because I am convinced similar things could easily happen today in multiple democratic nations.

Power is after all fluid and if you weaken your elected government just enough it will flow somewhere else. And if you are unlucky that somewhere else is even more out of the control of the citizen than a government would be.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by s3r3nity on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:07PM (#21096306)
Well we do have methods to enable division / compartmentalizing it - the biggest two concepts are:

1) The three branches of the federal government & the checks / balances system, each with their own sub-divisions (e.g. legislative having the Senate + House)

2) States Rights - whatever powers not dictated by the Constitution to the federal government are guaranteed to the States.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by scottlocklin on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:10PM (#21094031)
> I am a bit curious how the solution to this lack of trust is always diminsishing government power instead of say trying to figure out how to properly compartmentalize or divide it?

If we had a German civil service system instead of the orcs we're actually afflicted with, that would seem like a reasonable thing to do. When an American with historical sense looks at government regulation, we see Tammany Hall, defense contractors, the Clinton family's net worth (a considerable fortune made entirely from political graft) and guys like former SF Mayor Willie Brown wearing $40,000 suits when his job as Mayor pays him $35k a year: overt graft at the highest levels is as part of the fabric of society as Mom and Apple Pie. Usually reducing regulation is wanted by people who are not plugged into the power structure but would like to get their way.

FWIIW I think the OTA was a pretty good government agency, and though I am pretty right wing, Newt Gingrich was an evil jackass and almost everything he did was horrible for the country. I'm guessing they got the axe because they made the mistake of dabbling in policy rather than sticking with their mission, but it's just a guess. Bob Park would know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Park

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by skinnymuch on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:17PM (#21094110)
Why the Clinton’s specifically being mentioned? Yes they are very wealthy and in my opinion, unfairly so, but isn’t every senator a millionaire?
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by birdyrooster on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:16PM (#21093546)
The people who talk about reducing government are the same types who enjoy the status quo and don’t want wealth redistribution even though this nation, unlike Germany, has still yet to pay reparations for its greatest sins.

Your comment above is quite rare and I agree we must find a middle ground where we can distrust government but still empower it enough to resolve what is best for the nation. The status quo is not what is best for the nation and we should empower conservatives to think bigger than they have been. Maybe conservatives don’t need to dismantle government like an anarchist. Perhaps they could be augmenting it so it can be conserved and saved from revolution.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by bryanlarsen on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:00AM (#21092721)
That question should be "is this better than the alternative if my respective political party is only in control ~50% of the time?"

An argument can be made that a biased OTA is better than no OTA.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by maxerickson on Friday September 27, 2019 @10:51AM (#21092621)
I think you mean non-partisan.

Government is inherently political.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by oconnor663 on Friday September 27, 2019 @10:58AM (#21092700)
People use the terms interchangeably. Also a lot of government jobs make the distinction between "career" and "political".
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by edraferi on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:55AM (#21093312)
I believe the distinction you’re looking for is Civil Service vs Appointed positions. The Civil Service is composed of employees who are hired and managed competitively (to the extent allowable by the unions and massive red tape...). Appointed positions are executive roles filled by the whim of the president, or the whim of someone the president delegates to. The most powerful appointed positions require Senate confirmation.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by nabla9 on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:25PM (#21094175)
> I don't trust a government entity to be

Is this feeling or sentiment, or can you give reason why private enterprise providing the same service would be less partisan?

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by dekhn on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:43PM (#21093816)
I trust the GAO and the GBO even when the party I do not normally vote for has a majority in both houses and the presidency.