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Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:14AM (#21092866)
As someone who grew up in D.C. I disagree with this. Federal government employees try not to be overtly political, but they have a world view that is not necessarily representative of the country as a whole. You're going to find a lot more anarchists in Texas or Oregon than D.C. You're going to find a lot more religious people in Iowa than D.C. Folks in D.C.--on both sides of the aisle--tend to be predisposed to believing in the superiority of the educated upper middle class, seeing government as the solution to various problems, etc.

I'd say the same thing about journalists. 90%+ of journalists are democrats. (Overwhelmingly, white and male democrats.) They try to chart a course of "objectivity" within an overall left-leaning Overton window. For example, 32% of Democrats are "extremely proud to be an American" versus 74% of Republicans: https://news.gallup.com/poll/236420/record-low-extremely-pro.... It is impossible for such differences in world view not to affect your article selection and tone when it comes to areas like foreign policy, terrorism, national security, etc.

I should point out that I'm not talking about blatant partisanship. Judges, for example, seek to be objective. That doesn't mean that their world views don't affect their decisions. Justice Kagan has said that American judges--across the spectrum--are textualists most of the time. How would they approach deciding a Constitutional case in the U.K., which doesn't have a written constitution? Policymaking and reporting are no different. Everything you write that has any substance at all must have an internal logic. It will makes assumptions, and inferences about cause and effect. It is impossible to be "objective" with respect to that reasoning process or those assumptions.

For example, what is an "objective" article on AOC's new proposal for nationwide rent control? Do you think someone who believes deeply in markets would write the same article on that proposal as someone who believes that governments can legislate outcomes? I think a market-oriented person struggling to write an objective article about that proposal would either come across as partisan, or would have to write something utterly vacuous. It's one thing not to expressly take sides. It's entirely another to divorce yourself from your own modes of reasoning and assumptions about how the world works.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by birken on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:16PM (#21094098)
> I'd say the same thing about journalists. 90%+ of journalists are democrats.

I can't believe in all the responses nobody has challenged this statement. What is your source for this? Based on exit polls, in aggregate white men are heavily republican, and college educated white men are still republican by over 20 points. This seems like an extraordinary claim.

And for one tangible data point, in 2012, wikipedia shows 158 newspaper endorsing the democratic candidate, and 112 newspaper endorsing the republican candidate [1]. Obviously not a perfect metric, but that is ~58% of newspaper endorsing the democratic candidate.

Even in 2016, when the Republican candidate was specifically anti-journalists, only 69% of newspapers endorsed the democratic candidate [2].

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsements_in_the_...

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsements_in_the_...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:03PM (#21094548)
I mis-remembered the statistic a bit. (Sorry too late to edit, but breaking down the numbers here.)

7% of journalists identify as republican, versus 28% identifying as democrat. The majority identify as independent: https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/05/survey-7-percen....

So 80% of journalists who disclose a political affiliation identify as Democrat, and 20% identify as republican.

To put that into perspective: nationally, 27% of people identify as republican, versus 29% as democrat: https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx. Among the general population self-identified republicans and democrats are roughly evenly represented, but among journalists democrats outnumber republicans 4:1. I would expect the independents to break along the same proportions when it comes to voting.

Another way to look at it is to compare journalists to various demographic groups: https://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-af.... Journalists are less likely to self-identify as republicans than: urban voters, jewish voters, millenials, asian voters, and hispanic voters.

That is particularly interesting because journalists are more likely to be white and male than the general population, or democrats as a group. Therefore, their party identification is particularly unusual when compared to other white men.

On other metrics: a Texas A&M poll of finance journalists found that 58% described themselves as very or somewhat liberal, versus 4.4% saying they were very or somewhat conservative: https://www.dailywire.com/news/462-financial-journalists-wer....

Nationally, however, 37% of people say they are very or somewhat conservative, versus 24% who say they are very or somewhat liberal: https://news.gallup.com/poll/188129/conservatives-hang-ideol.... That makes the polled financial journalists 2.3x more likely to self-identify as liberal, and 1/8 as likely to self identify as conservative as the general population. That means the ratio of conservatives to liberals is 20x higher in that pool of journalists than in the general population.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by nkurz on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:26PM (#21094812)
While we are picking apart your statistics, I wondered about your claim that journalists are "Overwhelmingly, white and male democrats".

From what I can tell journalists at major US papers have about a 60:40 male to female ratio: https://www.statista.com/statistics/625800/newspaper-journal.... I also found this interesting source which seem to say that most newsrooms are about 80% white: https://googletrends.github.io/asne/.

My quick conclusion is that if we thus assume that male, white, and Democrat are independently distributed, we find that 60% * 80% * 30% = 15% of journalists are white males that identify as Democrats. While this is probably the most common combination of these particular characteristics, it doesn't feel particularly overwhelming.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by kelnos on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:13AM (#21100374)
> 7% of journalists identify as republican, versus 28% identifying as democrat. The majority identify as independent

> So 80% of journalists who disclose a political affiliation identify as Democrat, and 20% identify as republican.

That is an exceptionally misleading way of presenting/interpreting that data. 50% if journalists identify as independent. That is a political affiliation. You can't just ignore that group.

I find it encouraging that over half of journalists don't identify with the two main, polarized, often extremist political parties.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by listenallyall on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:39PM (#21094950)
Your 2016 reference states Clinton 500, Trump 28. (plus 30 "Not Trump") Not sure how you get 69% from that.

>> What is your source for this?

On an individual level, more than 90% of journalists' personal donations went to Clinton. $382,000 to $14,000. https://www.cjr.org/covering_the_election/campaign_donations...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by birken on Friday September 27, 2019 @04:10PM (#21095810)
In the 2016 campaign I referenced Clinton endorsements vs total endorsements. "No endorsement" received over 3x as many endorsements as the republican candidate. Also don't oversample from the 2016 election. One of the candidates literally referred to journalists as "enemy of the state". Probably not shocking that many journalistic outlets would rather endorse nobody than a candidate like that. Even going back 4 years you did not see that pattern.

According to Wikipedia, in 2004 the democratic candidate got 52% of the newspaper endorsements. In 2008 the democratic candidate got 62%. These are far from perfect measures but again, if 90% of journalists were in fact democrats then my guess is the number of newspapers that endorsed democratic candidates would be much closer to 90%, and it clearly isn't.

The total donations really aren't really convincing because clearly the vast majority of journalists donate to nobody, so you really don't know exactly what the preference is for the median journalist. I'd also be interested in the stats for 2012, 2008 and previous elections before making any conclusions.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @04:45PM (#21096102)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_endorsements_in_the_...

> As of November 4, 2008, Barack Obama had received more than twice as many publication endorsements as John McCain; in terms of circulation, the ratio was more than 3 to 1, according to the detailed tables below.

By circulation, it was like > 75% Obama versus McCain. Assuming journalist employment is roughly proportional to circulation, that suggests that a similar percentage of journalists are Democrats.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by leroy_masochist on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:54AM (#21093303)
> Folks in D.C.--on both sides of the aisle--tend to be predisposed to believing in the superiority of the educated upper middle class, seeing government as the solution to various problems, etc.

This is spot-on. They also tend to think that their high level of visibility into their highly focused sector of government bureaucracy (wherever it is they happen to work) has granted them broad and trenchant insight into the right answers for domestic and foreign policy. This attitude tends to come with a healthy side portion of disdain for the ability of non-DC people to comprehend any degree of political nuance.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by atonse on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:09PM (#21093478)
Good point on the AOC proposal. I don't know, since I haven't heard of it, nor have I read too many articles about that specific proposal.

Everything I've read about rising home prices has to do with supply/demand and the disruptive nature of AirBNB etc.

But if you as a journalist are talking about AOC's proposal, your main job is to communicate her proposal to the masses, your secondary job is to talk about why it may or may not work.

It's similar to any Republican counter proposal, if there were one that wasn't just based on dogmas like supply-side economics or "market will fix everything". You communicate the proposal and then talk about potentially how parts of it wouldn't work.

Tribalism is shit and really ruins a lot of these interesting debates. But I don't see true tribalism in places like the NYT. My bigger complaint with institutions like the NYT is that they're made of the same elites they're reporting on, so they aren't able to be truly objective.

Organizations like the Intercept do a much better job of "fuck you everyone, I'm going to expose you" than someone like the NYT. But that's not a republican/democrat thing. That's a lack of diversity (diversity of background, not skin color) problem in their staff.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by repolfx on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:41PM (#21093799)
But if you as a journalist are talking about AOC's proposal, your main job is to communicate her proposal to the masses, your secondary job is to talk about why it may or may not work.

Journalists don't believe it's their job to talk about why something may or may not work, but they really want to. They have a couple of ways to do that.

One is to select "experts" to comment on a story who agrees with the journalist. For any topic of enough importance you can usually find people who will present things your way, even if others would disagree.

Another is to use a library of common phrases that create an impression in the mind of the reader without actually committing to anything concrete. For instance:

• Mr Smith was under fire last night after proposing <X>

• A new idea from Mr Smith has been creating excitement after he launched <X> last night

• According to experts, <Y>

• <Z>, according to analysts

etc etc.

It'd be more honest if journalists wrote "X said Y and I think he's a douchebag because Z" but that'd make them, in their eyes, mere bloggers, so they rely on more subtle manipulations instead.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by losvedir on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:56PM (#21093900)
This sounds related to the whole "Republicans pounce" [0] thing.

[0] https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/when-repub...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by themacguffinman on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:06PM (#21093985)
It's absolutely a journalist's job to talk about why something may or may not work. News without context or analysis isn't journalism. Journalists have a duty to inform, and a basic retelling of facts is about as informative to the public as a basic retelling of statistics to non-statisticians. Framing this analysis as "subtle manipulations" is disingenuous regardless of how flawed/biased news analysis may be, which is about as flawed/biased as any analysis can be.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @04:49PM (#21096133)
> Framing this analysis as "subtle manipulations" is disingenuous regardless of how flawed/biased news analysis may be, which is about as flawed/biased as any analysis can be.

But it is subtle manipulation. How many articles have you read about failing schools or school funding challenges, and how often have they mentioned that the U.S. spends among the most in the world per student for K-12 education? As you say, presenting news without context or analysis isn't journalism. But the minute you start picking facts for context, or analyzing the facts, you're inherently incorporating your personal views.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by themacguffinman on Friday September 27, 2019 @07:47PM (#21097279)
> But the minute you start picking facts for context, or analyzing the facts, you're inherently incorporating your personal views.

That's not "subtle manipulation", that's bias. Calling it "subtle manipulation" disingenuously implies that journalists unscrupulously distort or change the news. Context & analysis is inherently biased, no surprises there, but you're approaching substance-free cynicism when you say stuff like "Journalists don't believe it's their job to talk about why something may or may not work, but they really want to."

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by repolfx on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:21AM (#21100140)
Journalists are qualified in nothing and can't possibly have any weight on the question of whether something will or will not work. That's why they always speak through experts. Why would anyone care what a journalist thinks? Their job is to journal, not tell people what to do.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by themacguffinman on Saturday September 28, 2019 @04:31PM (#21102689)
They don't tell people what to do. Even your example doesn't show journalists telling people what to do or show them sharing their personal thoughts on the matter. Journalists are qualified in reporting, which includes collecting, analyzing/contextualizing, and presenting relevant new facts, which is exactly what they are correctly doing when using your common library of phrases. Naturally, such reporting is prone to bias, and you may not agree with what is presented, but that isn't the same as "subtle manipulation", and it isn't the same as telling people what to do or think.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by amalcon on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:15PM (#21093543)
> I'd say the same thing about journalists. 90%+ of journalists are democrats. (Overwhelmingly, white and male democrats.)

> For example, 32% of Democrats are "extremely proud to be an American" versus 74% of Republicans

Disregarding for a moment that this is a super weird question to use as a barometer, this is not sound statistical reasoning. Journalists make up a very small, and very biased (in the statistical sense), cross section of the democratic party. Therefore, their answers to a given question won't move the overall answers very much.

It is like observing that 99%+ of iPhones are sometimes used to browse the web, and that a majority of web-browsing devices run Google Chrome. You can't infer from this that a majority of iPhones run Chrome (or, at least, not very strongly).

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by asokoloski on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:41AM (#21093153)
I suppose the question is not whether these people are a completely accurate representation of the country as a whole, but whether they will effectively serve as a dampening factor on corporate lobbyists. We shouldn't compare them against an unreachable ideal, but ask if they'll be an improvement on what we have now. I think they probably will.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:58AM (#21093349)
Do we want them to "serve as a dampening factor on corporate lobbyists?"

https://news.gallup.com/poll/187919/big-government-named-big...

> When asked to choose among big government, big labor and big business, Americans overwhelmingly name big government as the biggest threat to the country in the future. The 69% choosing big government is down slightly from a high of 72% in 2013, the last time Gallup asked the question, but is still one of the highest percentages choosing big government in Gallup's 50-year trend.

As of 2015, 70% of Americans viewed big government as the "biggest threat" versus just 25% listing big businesses.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by jazzyk on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:39PM (#21093777)
>As of 2015, 70% of Americans viewed big government as the "biggest threat" versus just 25% listing big businesses.

Wherever the government tries to "regulate" - unprecedented wealth transfer from ordinary people to special interests follows: the health-care(?) mafia, the higher education mafia, etc. Always sold as "think of the elderly/children".

Big Government -> Lobbyists (corruption) -> Corporatism

(In the US, Europe is a bit different, because lobbying is not as predatory)

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by JediWing on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:08PM (#21096313)
The problem as it's explained is that those being regulated are the ONLY ones presenting informed commentary on the issue.

Surely hearing a perspective from someone striving (at the very least) to be objective rather than ONLY hearing from someone who has clear bias on the issue (the corporation to be regulated) is more likely to be a good thing than a bad thing.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by jonnybgood on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:41PM (#21093797)
Big business can be easily qualified. But how do you qualify big government? What is not a big government? Is there such a thing as an objectively small government i.e. not attached to a political ideology?
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by jackcosgrove on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:38PM (#21094942)
> Is there such a thing as an objectively small government i.e. not attached to a political ideology?

Many local governments are like this, with explicitly non-partisan elections (although partisanship may be implicit). More likely, the powers and resources of the local government are limited such that there's no "slack" for partisanship, and they are literally just trying to keep the lights on.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by tehjoker on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:34PM (#21093735)
There is no evaluation without a worldview, such a thing is preposterous. However, there is something to be said for having advisors that are not literally being actively paid by the people you are trying to regulate. Ideology is one thing (it's at least honest and heartfelt), not having any advice is another thing.

Using Google's people is like using the lawyer of the guy you're suing.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by snagglegaggle on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:03PM (#21093415)
I feel much the same. D.C. and even a lot of political positions are a bit divorced from common life. In my experience it is seen as a lack of knowledge of the cost of things, and the hardships of most of the US.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by unethical_ban on Saturday September 28, 2019 @12:50PM (#21101389)
When making complex decisions affecting the lives of millions, or handling issues that require deep subject matter expertise, is an educated upper middle class not better at making decisions than an uneducated lower class? (or any uneducated person)?

That isn't to say the lower class has no say in their government - it is why "democracy is the worst form of government, besides all the others". But having an intellectual, technical team of "trying-not-to-be-partisans" helping elected officials make decisions is a good thing, and you make it sound like a bad thing.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by the_watcher on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:44PM (#21095017)
> Federal government employees try not to be overtly political, but they have a world view that is not necessarily representative of the country as a whole.

There's also the simple incentives argument: Why don't people trust lobbyists? Because they're paid by people/companies/organizations/etc who have (at the very least arguably) a vested interest in a given outcome, so it's hard to trust their motives. Wouldn't the same be true of a government office of "experts"? Wouldn't they have the same incentives to advance the agenda of those who keep them employed?

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by tptacek on Friday September 27, 2019 @03:37PM (#21095538)
You should be a little bit more careful generalizing from that Gallup poll; fewer Democrats are "extremely proud" to be American now, for pretty obvious reasons, but the gap was far smaller a few years ago.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by jasonlotito on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:53AM (#21093293)
> As someone who grew up in D.C. I disagree with this. Federal government employees try not to be overtly political, but they have a world view that is not necessarily representative of the country as a whole.

That's not what the comment was referring to in the slightest. You're disagreeing that water is wet because fire is hot. They aren't completely different things.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by claudeganon on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:27AM (#21093005)
Within the actual, global spectrum of political philosophies, the difference between American Democrats and Republicans is remarkably small, especially in comparison to many European parliaments. Just look at the consensus about and subsequent lack of accountability for the Iraq War as an example.

What do you think is an actual, meaningful consequence of something like “90% of journalists being Democrats.” In all the domains you cite, I see a general consensus around a right-wing perspective about America‘s place in the world.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by AnthonyMouse on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:36AM (#21093100)
Not only are they biased, most of the bias crosses party lines so that many opinions are never represented there? That would be worse rather than better, wouldn't it?
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @11:50AM (#21093267)
I think the trope that Americans are categorically right-wing compared to Europe is false. Just in 2017, the party that came in second in the Dutch elections proposed to ban the Quran and shut down all mosques. Le Pen, whose party is the offshoot of an actual Nazi party, won a third of the French vote. In the US, the idea of making English the national language is not something even Republicans push these days. In France, the idea of French as the national language is nearly universally supported. New Zealand and Ireland recently got rid of birthright citizenship. Attitudes that are part of the "mainstream right" in much of Europe would get you labeled a white supremacist in the U.S.

On the economic front, U.S. Democrats are to the left of the European (and Canadian and Australian) center in many respects. Macron is a "socialist" that is trying to privatize SNCF. Sweden is extremely market oriented, has school vouchers, etc. The EU keeps pressing forward on privatization efforts in various sectors like rail and utilities. Trump was late to the game compared to France, Germany, Sweden, etc., in terms of cutting corporate taxes.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by claudeganon on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:21PM (#21093604)
> Attitudes that are part of the "mainstream right" in much of Europe would get you labeled a white supremacist in the U.S.

That’s because Europe has a different historical and political context than the US though? Many of those policies would be correctly described as white supremacist if advocated for within the US context because the US is historically a white supremacist country and has organized much of its politics along those lines. In Europe, they would probably be understood as “fascistic” because, as you’ve correctly identified, many of their advocates descend from this ideology and its history on the continent.

> On the economic front, U.S. Democrats are to the left of the European

Historically, Democrats have supported charter schools, privatization, and kept in place corporate tax cuts passed by Republicans, so I’m not sure this bears scrutiny. While there is an emergent left flank of the Democratic party, it is deeply at odds with the party elite, their institutions, apparatuses, and is stymied by them at most turns.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:47PM (#21095052)
> That’s because Europe has a different historical and political context than the US though? Many of those policies would be correctly described as white supremacist if advocated for within the US context because the US is historically a white supremacist country and has organized much of its politics along those lines.

That’s a weird bit of bootstrapping. France colonized Muslim countries in North Africa, and then when people came to France from those countries the French insisted they learn French, banned religious symbols like hijab, etc. French language and cultural purity absolutely is a sort of at least cultural supremacy.

Likewise the success of right wing parties in Europe. They’re putatively nationalistic, but the strong anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant sentiments make clear they rest heavily on cultural and ethnic supremacy.

> Historically, Democrats have supported charter schools, privatization, and kept in place corporate tax cuts passed by Republicans, so I’m not sure this bears scrutiny. While there is an emergent left flank of the Democratic party, it is deeply at odds with the party elite, their institutions, apparatuses, and is stymied by them at most turns.

Democrats have a strong “party of FDR” trend, which is an anti-market, pro-regulation viewpoint. I’d characterize Clinton and Obama as exceptions, with the “Green New Deal” being a return to the norm. Meanwhile, Canada, Australia, and the EU have pushed ahead with deregulation and privatization under both liberal and conservative governments.

Canada, for example, is basically an example of Clinton/Gingrich’s government trimming and “welfare to work” being applied for 30 years: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTNKL...

Trudeau, a liberal, continues to promise corporate tax cuts and deregulation. Public transit in many european cities is opened up to competitive bidding. Stockholm’s subway is privately operated. I’m not aware of any privately operated subways in the US. France has extensive privatized water utilities. Europe continues to embrace markets and deregulation at a level Democrats have not done since Clinton.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by pgcj_poster on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:47PM (#21093841)
Also, the same policy can occupy a different place on the right-left spectrum in different countries. For example, as an American that's lived in France for a short time, I oppose English as the official language in the US, but I support French as an official language in France (although I might argue that other languages, like Occitan, should be given equal status as well).

Why? Well, I don't think English is in any danger. People are learning English all over the world, and I've never in my entire time in the US had someone try to speak any language other the English to me. On the other hand, French, while still a very important language, is clearly on the decline compared to where it was a couple hundred years ago. Lots of French musicians these days write songs mostly in English. I'd be sad if the French language lost its central position in French society, and I think it actually is important for the government to try to stop that from happening.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by pgcj_poster on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:28PM (#21093682)
The person you're replying to was saying that range of political views between Democrats and Republicans is smaller than the range of views in Europe. As you've noted, there are some Nazi-adjacent parties winning elections in Europe. There are also some communist parties that have seats in European assemblies. That seems to support the idea that the difference between Republicans and Democrats is relatively small.

Also, I don't think that even the "we want to shut down mosques" right-wing of Europe wants to eg. get rid of socialized healthcare.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by brmgb on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:53PM (#21093883)
No offense but Le Pen party is absolutely not an offshoot of a nazi party. The idea that you could casually label a third of France as nazy is strongly offensive.

Le Pen actually tried to join the resistance as a teenager. It is a strongly nationalist and protectionist party which used to be/is xenophobic but it has nothing to do with the Nazi. Trump idea are more radical in a lot of way. Let's not forget he suggested actually building a wall at the border. Also Macron is rightfully seen as center right in France and certainly not as a socialist.

French has been the official language of France since 1539. Having French as the official language is hardly a rightwing position. The question of having an official language is only seen as rightwing in the USA because it's done to spit the large part of the population speaking Spanish. This is purely cultural. It's a bit like supporting gun regulation which is seen as left wing in the USA while not supporting it is seen as being a lunatic in the rest of the world.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by tptacek on Friday September 27, 2019 @03:36PM (#21095520)
Le Pen's father, the founder of the French National Front party, was a Holocaust denier who was forced to pay settlements over his statements. There's not "no" nexus between Le Pen and Nazism.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by brmgb on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:53AM (#21099662)
Le Pen father is an antisemite, a racist and a generally despicable person who thought and was condamned for saying that the Holocaust is a mere "detail of history", not a denier.

That doesn't in any way make his party a offshoot of the Nazi party especially in its modern form. You might be a mere American and therefore throwing the word Nazi casually like a low grade insult. That doesn't justify implying that a third of France is voting for the Nazi party.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:14AM (#21100112)
https://www.ft.com/content/967daaae-2412-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0...

> The National Front party leader warned over the Easter weekend that French “civilisation” was under threat as she pledged to suspend all legal immigration and protect the French way of life, toning down her plan to take France out of the euro.

> “Give us France back, damn it!” the far-right candidate demanded at a rally in Paris on Monday night as her supporters chanted: “This is our home!”

> In comments clearly aimed at France’s Muslim population, she said: “In France, we drink wine whenever we want. In France we do not force women to wear the veil because they are impure . . . In France, we get to decide who deserves to become French.”

Who are the people whose home France is?)

[dead]
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @12:03PM (#21093417)
Your view of modern republicans is outdated. Many Republicans are non-religious like myself and align themselves closer to the views of the founding fathers. We simply see the rampant corruption in government and propose it is a better solution to limit governmental power as opposed to increasing it.

If I were to paint democrats in a similar manner they would all be bike lock wielding liberal arts professors and that would be unfair.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:13PM (#21094058)
The difference is that these things are written into Republic party platforms and are not merely the views of individual Democrats, and the average Republican voter absolutely picks up on this. Thus, even if bureaucrats considers themselves Republican, they appear to be Democrats to these voters.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:30PM (#21094235)
What party platform document are you referencing? I've never seen that.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by hdctambien on Friday September 27, 2019 @01:55PM (#21094482)
I believe he is refering to this[1]. Each party publishes one each election year.

[1] https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FIN...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:07PM (#21094588)
Care to quote the passage? Its 60 some odd pages long.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:42PM (#21094978)
"religious individuals and institutions can educate young people, receive government benefits, and participate in public debates without having to check their religious beliefs at the door."

"The United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is a political mechanism, not an unbiased scientific institution. Its unreliability is reflected in its intolerance toward scientists and others who dissent from its orthodoxy."

The scientists like Spencer and Legates who "dissent from its orthodoxy" that the GOP trots out for its voters actually dissent due to their religious beliefs. https://www.cornwallalliance.org/2009/05/01/signers-of-an-ev...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @05:02PM (#21096267)
> "religious individuals and institutions can educate young people, receive government benefits, and participate in public debates without having to check their religious beliefs at the door."

That's not directed to science. It's directed to the separate issue of public education being a vehicle for eliminating religion from childrens' education, and replacing religious social values with government values developed by education boards. It's a legitimate concern when the government is deciding how you socialize your kids, and leaves you few avenues for opting out. (Also, it's a model that's by and large uncontroversial in most of Europe.)

As to your second quote, it appears 10 pages later. Is there some sort of connection you're trying to draw between the two?

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:27PM (#21097498)
> As to your second quote, it appears 10 pages later. Is there some sort of connection you're trying to draw between the two?

Both are examples of pushing faith above science, which is the whole point of my argument.

> public education being a vehicle for eliminating religion

Public education does not do anything to eliminate religion except where they disagree, as in evolution vs. Biblical creationism.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @03:28PM (#21095469)
That seems a little post hoc and doesn't mention teaching creationism in public schools. I get there are things in there that people disagree with but I was looking for the point made previously. Simply citing a large document and not having read it isn't arguing in good faith.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:23PM (#21097474)
I didn't cite that large document. Claiming that I did is not arguing in good faith.

The particular example of creationism comes from the Texas GOP's platform. https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/06/28/the-texas-repu...

You can certainly see echoes of it in the national platform. That is no mistake.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:43PM (#21097568)
That article is from 2012 and is about the Texas GOP. It seems like this claim was not true.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @09:57PM (#21097873)
I never claimed it was in the national platform. You are once again arguing in bad faith.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Saturday September 28, 2019 @06:05AM (#21099489)
I don't live in Texas in 2012, so that isn't part of my parties platform. I suppose you agree with every element of every state democrat platform ever published. Well post Jim Crow of course.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:10PM (#21102895)
Texas is the largest GOP state, and as the other poster showed, that faith based stuff is mirrored at the national level.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by notJim on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:29PM (#21094842)
> Many Republicans are non-religious like myself and align themselves closer to the views of the founding fathers. We simply see the rampant corruption in government and propose it is a better solution to limit governmental power as opposed to increasing it.

Surely the nomination of Donald Trump in 2016 should call into question how large of a subset of the Republican party this represents.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by whatshisface on Friday September 27, 2019 @02:50PM (#21095085)
Republicans wouldn't elect the Trump that Democrat media outlets show, they would elect the Trump that Republican media outlets show. Listen to a Republican describe Trump and you'll hear about someone a sane person could plausibly vote for. Would a Republican vote for a womanizing Russia-serving friend of Epstien? No way! A charismatic business-oriented people's man? You bet!
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @03:21PM (#21095407)
> Would a Republican vote for a womanizing Russia-serving friend of Epstien?

If the alternative is a Democrat? You bet.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by whatshisface on Friday September 27, 2019 @04:05PM (#21095772)
A Republican would probably be willing to vote for a Democrat as Democrats perceive them, but not a Democrat as Republicans perceive them.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by rayiner on Friday September 27, 2019 @07:30PM (#21097189)
Probably not. I grew up during Clinton’s “welfare to work” and continuing Reagan’s deregulation and trimming federal employment rolls. I always thought it was ridiculous that Republicans called Democrats “socialists.” Now when you have the crowd boo-ing candidates for saying socialism isn’t the answer, I’m not sure Republicans are wrong about what Democrats want. Maybe it was just the shadow of Reagan and Newt Gingrich that kept things on the rails for a couple of cycles.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:34PM (#21097521)
Those booing crowds don't even know what socialism is and have likely confused it with Scandinavian-style social democracy. I can count on one hand the number of actual socialists I have ever met in the US, so that position is absolutely fringe.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @03:42PM (#21095582)
A Democrat who sold uranium to Russians and whose husband is a womanizer and of a very good friend of Epistein no less.
Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:33PM (#21097517)
> A Democrat who sold uranium to Russians

The Democrat you're referring to never owned any Uranium to sell.

> whose husband is a womanizer and of a very good friend of Epistein no less.

A fault of association with a womanizing friend of Epstein vs. a fault of actually being a womanizing friend of Epstein's does not seem like a very strong reason. The real reason they voted for Trump is the R next to his name.

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by fuzz4lyfe on Friday September 27, 2019 @08:44PM (#21097579)
>The Democrat you're referring to never owned any Uranium to sell.

Yet millions flowed to her foundation upon the completion of that sale[0], getting paid for something you don't own is worse.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton...

Re:Strengthening Congressional Independence from Corporate L... by lern_too_spel on Saturday September 28, 2019 @05:08PM (#21102879)
Millions flowed to her foundation before the sale, too. Claiming she was paid for that deal is conspiracy theory lunacy, no different from Biblical creationism and climate science denialism. https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/facts-uranium-one/