News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by Analemma_ on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:21PM (#21050367)
Out of all the product's in Apple's lineup, the Mac Pro is probably the one with the smallest price differential relative to competitors' products. Go ahead and spec out a similar workstation from Dell or HP: you won't see much difference in price.

Base price doesn't really matter to the buyers of these machines anyway, they're not consumer products. These are being used by professionals who generate revenue way in excess of what the computer costs, and stuff like enterprise support contracts (where you can have a replacement machine at your desk ASAP if yours dies, because otherwise you're losing money by the second) matters much more to them.

The articles you linked are just dumb clickbait using the logic of consumer product pricing where it isn't applicable.

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by michaelt on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:39PM (#21050584)
> Go ahead and spec out a similar workstation from Dell or HP: you won't see much difference in price.

Apple: Xeon W, 8 cores, 3.5GHz, 32GB RAM, 256GB SSD, $5,999 [1]

Dell: Xeon W, 8 cores, 3.7GHz, 32GB RAM, 256GB SSD, $3,466 [2]

[1] https://www.tomsguide.com/us/mac-pro-2019-specs-price,news-3... [2] https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/workstations-isv-certif...

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by dubcanada on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:47PM (#21050693)
Not to be pedantic but the Dell machine is on sale, and Apple isn't.

It's list price is $4,420.29 which is still about $1500 off. But that comes with Windows that supports 4 cores so you would need to upgrade to the 4+ cores one thats another $100 so more like $1400.

So basically $1400 is the difference between a top tier Dell and a top tier Apple. Still a fairly large margin, but after a certain number the amount matters less. People who are buying $4500 computers typically don't care about spending another $1000.

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by sjburt on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:55PM (#21050777)
Dells are always on "sale". It's part of some game involving enterprise sales and negotiated discounts off list price.
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by delfinom on Monday September 23, 2019 @01:19PM (#21051041)
Yep. Dell's website will always show a sales price. Even better, use a different browser or refresh a hour later and the price will change as well. Even Lenovo and HP do it. The best is when you enter the configuration for a PC build and hit refresh and you see individual items change in prices.

Also if you go via a Dell sales rep you easily get 10% extra off that "sales price" for low volume buyers and if you are a large volume buyer you can easily get as much as 50% off the list price even for high ticket value items.

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by madeofpalk on Monday September 23, 2019 @02:24PM (#21051874)
Likewise for Apple (though I guess Dell's discounts are more substantial
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by penagwin on Monday September 23, 2019 @05:17PM (#21053797)
Wait what? Apple rarely if ever has "sales" on their products, I've seen student discounts and itunes gift cards, but that's about it.

At Dell/HP/Lenovo meanwhile half their products are "on sale" the same way that furniture stores have "sales" - its "sale" price is basically it's real price.

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by madeofpalk on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @02:57PM (#21063446)
They don't have sales, but they definitely have 'sales team pricing' .
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by CryptoBanker on Monday September 23, 2019 @01:48PM (#21051410)
Speak for yourself. My laptop cost almost $5,000, my desktop cost almost $3,000 to build, and you can bet that another $1,400 would have made a huge difference either way. Not to say things wouldnt have ended up the same way, but I definitely would have cared about another $1400.

When you're talking about numbers like that for individuals, 15% is a lot. Even businesses would care about a 15% increase in costs

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by benologist on Monday September 23, 2019 @01:59PM (#21051557)
I think it hurts when the last $1400 is basically 12 Thunderbolt 3 ports and the power allowance for them. There's no value in that many TB3 ports for most people.
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by bradlys on Monday September 23, 2019 @02:22PM (#21051845)
Well, I think the point of the Mac Pro is that it's not for most people.

It's actually a "Pro" product.

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by benologist on Monday September 23, 2019 @02:43PM (#21052101)
They could have put most of those TB3 ports and controllers in optional PCIe cards and the $4999 base model would still be Pro. Because the point of the Pro devices is to be the more-powerful option.

The iPad Pro doesn't have any TB ports and the Macbook Pro and iMac Pro only have 4 each so I think 12 is simply unnecessary for the "Pro" moniker in addition to greatly exceeding most people's requirements.

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by coupdejarnac on Monday September 23, 2019 @02:45PM (#21052128)
Most of us here are "pros" who use our computers to make money.

Maybe if Mac Pros were designed for animation studios or something niche, the pricing would make sense.

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by llampx on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:33PM (#21052675)
The "Pro" suffix completely lost its value with the iPhone 11 Pro Max.
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by briandear on Monday September 23, 2019 @04:12PM (#21053084)
How? Have you used the Pro phone?
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by Zarel on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @03:04AM (#21057317)
When Gizmodo tried, the Dell they built cost $8000:

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/06/is-the-new-mac-pro-hands-...

If I were to guess the reason for the difference, I'd notice:

- Your Dell has a SATA SSD, the Mac Pro has an NVMe SSD

- Your Dell has no wifi/bluetooth, the Mac Pro has WiFi 5 and Bluetooth 5.0

- Your Dell has 1 gigabit Ethernet, the Mac Pro has 2x10 gigabit Ethernet

- Your Dell has no Thunderbolt 3 ports, the Mac Pro has 8

- Your Dell doesn't come with a keyboard and mouse, the Mac Pro does

- Your Dell doesn't have any equivalent for Apple's T2 chip or Afterburner card

Although the Gizmodo one doesn't have a lot of these, either. Most of the price difference seems to have to do with yours being a Precision 5820 and Gizmodo's being a Precision 7920. I'm not sure exactly what the difference is here, but it might have something to do with expandability?

If you're not concerned with expandability, the iMac Pro seems to have better specs for a lower price, and may be a fairer comparison.

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by michaelt on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @01:40PM (#21062665)
The 'Afterburner card' isn't present in the base configuration of Mac Pro we know the price for.

Dell can add an NVMe SSD, wifi, bluetooth, 2x10 gigabit ethernet, and a keyboard and mouse. Those increase the price by $400. Dell will do two thunderbolt ports for $70, so 8 would be $280.

So unfortunately the things you've listed only explain $680 of the price difference.

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by Zarel on Saturday September 28, 2019 @11:12AM (#21100723)
Yeah, like I said, a lot of the difference seems to be that yours is a Precision 5820 and Gizmodo's is a Precision 7920. Understanding the reason for the price difference there is probably pretty relevant to this.
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by dev_tty01 on Monday September 23, 2019 @11:32PM (#21056241)
The specs you've listed aren't sufficient to describe the differences. Here are some additional numbers to consider:

Mac: 1.4 KW supply, 2933MHz memory (with 12+ core), 24.5 MB cpu cache, 2.6GB/2.7GBbytes/sec SSD R/W (encrypted), Afterburner ProRes and ProRes Raw available, crazy quiet, radical thermal management, ...

Dell: 0.95 KW supply, 2666MHz memory, 8MB cpu cache, 500K/300Kbytes/sec SSD R/W, ...

Apple has designed fully custom I/O controller chips for things like SSD interfaces and the Afterburner MPX modules that have some insane specs. Simple top line specs just don't tell the whole story.

Current Imac Pros are already getting 2.4GB/3GBbytes/sec SSD RW. Even the current macbook pro gets 1.7GB/1.4GByte speeds. Nonetheless, if these high impact details don't matter to you, don't buy it. No big deal. Just don't oversimplify the comparison. Of course, we haven't even mentioned the OS differences...

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by michaelt on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @03:22AM (#21057397)
The only Mac with a price announced has a Xeon W-3223 and to get a fair comparison price for the Dell, I selected the Xeon W-2145.

That means the Mac has 8 cores, 3.50 GHz, 16.5 MB cache, 2666 MHz memory [1] while the Dell has 8 cores, 3.70 GHz, 11 MB cache, 2666 MHz memory [2].

So the Mac has slightly more cache, while the Dell has a slightly higher clock speed.

I'm not sure I understand how the availability of accelerator cards that aren't fitted in either machine is relevant to a price comparison?

[1] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/193739/... [2] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/126707/...

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by benologist on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:41PM (#21050603)
You're also paying for 12 Thunderbolt 3 ports. They really could have made some of those optional since there's PCIe slots too. In addition to expensive parts I believe TB3 requires licensing costs too but I'm not sure if Apple has to because I think it was partially created by them.
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by pier25 on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:22PM (#21052557)
What GPUs?
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by michaelt on Monday September 23, 2019 @05:05PM (#21053642)
The Mac has a radeon pro 580X - G3DMark 7540 [1] - while the Dell has a nvidia quadro P4000 - G3D Mark 10465 [2]

No evidence a difference in graphics cards accounts for the price difference.

[1] https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Radeon+Pro+58... [2] https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?id=3719

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by overcast on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:31PM (#21050478)
I feel like most businesses at that level of need have long moved away from the MacPro, or they are out of business. For the rest of us mortals wanting a tower mac, the price of entry is too prohibitive. Base for my 2008 MacPro was in the ball park of $2900, and it was a beast. What is the base now, $6000? It's basically hackintosh from here on out, which works amazingly well now.
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by _ph_ on Monday September 23, 2019 @01:32PM (#21051207)
Yes, I actually had planned to buy a new Mac Pro if it had been similar in price to your 2008 Mac Pro. I am currently using a 27 inch iMac and am looking for a desktop machine with a decent GPU and decent internal storage. So at 3k for a Mac Pro plus some money for upgrades, I could have grudgingly justified. At 6k it is just way too expensive.
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by theflyinghorse on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:31PM (#21052653)
I've been using Mint (ubuntu derivative) for a few years now on my laptop and I'm absolutely loving it, more so when you consider the price difference. (am a software dev so linux is great for me)
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by overcast on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @08:08AM (#21059123)
I use the same on my dev desktop(I use all three OSes).
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by dkonofalski on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:36PM (#21052702)
Hackintoshes are great but I would never rely on one for any kind of production work if my business depended on it. I had a Hackintosh tower that went completely dead after something happened with device IDs. The machine was unusable. I had system updates disabled too so I'm not even sure what happened. Had to reinstall the OS and Clover (or whatever the loader was at the time).
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by vonseel on Monday September 23, 2019 @07:08PM (#21054743)
I had an older (2013 or 14) Lenovo TS140 sitting around that I recently installed Mojave on. It took a little bit of experimentation to work out the kinks, but I've got it working almost flawlessly with a NVME drive in a PCIE adapter, 32GB RAM, and a Broadcom wifi card to enable Airdrop/continuity/handoff. Not bad for an older machine and less than $250 in extra parts, most of which I had already purchased over the years.

I used these guides:

https://hackintosh.gitbook.io/-r-hackintosh-vanilla-desktop-...

https://www.reddit.com/r/hackintosh/wiki/faq#wiki_wifi_compa...

The only thing I haven't been able to solve/fix is I can't use software that depends on WiBu Codemeter[1] - some sort of piracy prevention. This includes stuff like newer versions of Antares AutoTune, and other audio production software. WiBu installs a third-party kext, which doesn't play well with my audio interface for some reason (RME, also installs a third-party kext) - causes a lot of pops and clicks or dropouts until I uninstall WiBU. If anyone has any suggestions on workaround for this, please respond here!

PS: after losing my system too many times in the past, now I keep a mirror image backup of all my systems in case I break something... Esp. with hackintosh it is just too easy to lose a system.

[1]: https://www.wibu.com/us/products/codemeter.html

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by overcast on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:40PM (#21052746)
Like I said, businesses have moved on, the rest of us found alternatives.
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by mugsie on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:47PM (#21050686)
I just spec'd out a HP Z6 to the min spec of the Mac Pro - it came to about $4000 (and that is EU prices, I am sure the US prices are less) - so 20% difference.

An maxed out z8 is $50k - but that is way over what most people need, or you can do with a Mac Pro

If you look at other manafacturers - you can get insane performance for much cheaper.

2 x AMD Epycs (64 cores per CPU, 128 cores / 256 threads in the box) 1TB RAM 2x2TB SSD 2 x Quadro RTX 6000

Is $38,000. It is not even in the same sport, let alone league as the mac pro

Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by _ph_ on Monday September 23, 2019 @01:29PM (#21051172)
Besides that you can get equivalent machines at a lower price, as some comments here have shown, the other big problem with the Mac Pro is, that there is no other true desktop machine available from Apple, e.g. accessible components, supporting a graphics card. In the past, the Mac Pro would work as a slightly oversized deskop machine. But the new Mac Pro is priced completely out of that region, basically twice of what its predecessor cost. And I remember the times, when the entry level G5 PowerMac was slightly cheaper as the G5 iMac, the latter of course having a 20 inch lcd.
Re:Apple’s New Mac Pro to Be Made in Texas by utf985 on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:51PM (#21050736)
You're joking, right? I'm currently looking at the Mac Pro build page on Apple's site and literally every component upgrade costs nearly twice as much as if you got it individually - £360 to upgrade to a 1B pcie SSD (as opposed to 170 on amazon), just as much for 16Gb of DDR3 ECC memory (180 on other sites), etc.