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Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @09:31PM (#21045234)
Should I also learn how to repair my car instead of just taking it to the dealer? It’s called specialization of labor. Most of us make an above average wage dealing with computers and pay other people to know things we don’t know.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by chongli on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:00PM (#21045359)
I see the car analogy used regularly and I think it’s completely off base. A much better analogy for computer skills is literacy and numeracy. We don’t tell people “don’t bother learning how to read, you can listen to audio books on audible!” just as we shouldn’t tell people that computer programming is only for professional software developers (or anything else involving intensive skill mastery related to computers).
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by Spivak on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:33PM (#21045513)
Being able to use a computer is like being able to drive a car. After a little practice and learning a few rules most cars are pretty easy to just get in and drive. It takes a little more effort to learn to drive stick, and formula one cars are only driven by professionals.

Computer programming is like building, modding, or repairing your car — you can learn but it’s an activity done basically only by hobbyists and professionals.

Troubleshooting computer issues is like car maintenance. Everyone can fill the tank with gas, most people can change a tire, fewer can change their oil, and fewer still can jump a battery.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by sedachv on Monday September 23, 2019 @01:35AM (#21046191)
Those are really poor analogies. What you call "using a computer" means using a pre-made application that turns the computer into an appliance. Instead of making inappropriate analogies (IMO usually a redundant phrase), look at where the tasks fit into Piaget's model of cognitive development.¹ Driving a car is the sensorimotor stage. Proficient computer use requires a high capability of the formal operational stage.

The bad news is that a lot of people will never attain the formal operational stage, and what is even worse is that the percentage of people that do is falling.² The results of this study are not surprising.

The take-away should be that it is pointless and counter-productive to try to dumb down the user interface for applications in domains that require a high level of cognitive development. No amount of picture icons and hamburger menus is going to make up for an inability to reason abstractly. What it will do is make it impossible for anyone to ever use the application efficiently.

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget%27s_theory_of_cognitive... ² https://oneofus.la/files/flynn2018.pdf

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by baroffoos on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:51PM (#21045580)
Pretty much right. Yes its useful for almost anyone to know programming but we can't learn everything in the world that's useful. A carpenter is probably thinking its crazy I can't build my own bench and have to pay loads more for someone else to do it.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by Swizec on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:26AM (#21045907)
You can make a bench with 4 cinder blocks and a plank. Now a good bench ...

I guess the equivalent in computing would be spreadsheets? You can automate and build awesome things but god help you if you wanna move it somewhere else

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by TeMPOraL on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:59AM (#21046820)
As long as such a bench gets the job done, the person making it wins.

Similarly with spreadsheets. Sure, they get ugly. But they allow to get work done better and faster that it would be otherwise (if it was done at all). The alternative usually involves finding a ready-made domain-specific application and adjusting your (or your company's) workflow to it, or pestering someone to make it for you, both of which are frequently bad trade-offs. It takes time to arrange, often siloes you off your data, you have lots of irrelevant stuff to learn besides your task, and it prevents you from iterating on your workflow. I'd say the last one - iteration on workflow - is the biggest source of Excel (ab)use. Hard to lock down your process in a domain-specific tool if the details of that process are fuzzy and subject to change.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by baroffoos on Monday September 23, 2019 @07:09PM (#21054748)
The idea of a house full of hacked together cinder block and chipboard furniture doesn't thrill me. It might work for a workshop but I think I will just pay for the expert made stuff in my house.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:08PM (#21045628)
And car mechanics would look at you just as derisively for not knowing how to fix your own car. They would also say that fixing a car isn’t just for professionals. The average person doesn’t need to know how to program any more than the average programmer needs to know assembly (I do). Everyone is ignorant to someone who doesn’t knows something that they do.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by rsnor on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:22AM (#21045892)
Is it fair to say that because there will always be more specialized skills to be learned, that none should be learned?

Everyone may not need to know how to repair their car, but to perform basic, routine maintenance on it and to learn driving technique as intended is something that, when neglected, can cause major inefficiencies.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:36AM (#21045936)
Specialization says just the opposite. That everyone should specialize in a combination of what they are good at and there is a demand because it is much more efficient and trade those goods and services that they specialize in for goods and services that they don’t. In the modern era instead of trading directly, we use money as an intermediary.

Economics 101 says just the opposite, that you create inefficiencies when you don’t specialize. Why is car maintenance anything that everyone should know and not plumbing, electrical work or carpentry?

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Monday September 23, 2019 @02:12AM (#21046357)
> Economics 101 says just the opposite, that you create inefficiencies when you don’t specialize.

That's simply bullshit. If you specialize on only installing tires on cars, but not removing them, you have specialized more than a business that swaps your tires, but you have created massive inefficiency by requiring your customers to somehow move around vehicles without tires for you to install tires for them.

There are particular circumstances where specialization increases efficiency, and there are (obviously) other circumstances where specialization decreases efficiency, so it's nonsensical to just say that specializing is always the more efficient choice, which is why all your analogies fail: You use an example where specialization (arguably) increases efficiency, then you completely fail to explain how computer skills fall into the same category as that example, and then you conclude that therefore it is in the same category.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:22AM (#21048198)
And you left out the part where I said “and there is a demand”. There is no demand for someone who can remove a tire but not install it....

Every specialization is about knowing the level of integration and specialization.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Monday September 23, 2019 @09:55AM (#21048941)
> And you left out the part where I said “and there is a demand”. There is no demand for someone who can remove a tire but not install it....

Well, then that's simply the claim that markets solve all problems optimally ... which is equally bullshit?

> Every specialization is about knowing the level of integration and specialization.

So ... specialization is always better, except when it's not? Yeah, duh!? How exactly does that help us with determining what the right level of integration and specialization is?

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @10:02AM (#21049010)
On a personal level, the “right level” depends on your disposable income and your talents. I have the disposable income to throw money at a lot of things that I don’t want to do - not bragging almost any software engineer in the US should be at the top quintile of earners for their local market.

On a broader scale that’s the entire idea of the value chain.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by michaelmrose on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:29AM (#21046672)
If you know nothing whatsoever about cars or maintenance thereof you will get taken by the salesman then you will run your cars into the ground burning money and then get ripped off every time you need someone to maintain or fix your car because you don't know enough to know when someone is bullshitting you.

People are expected to know SOMETHING about cars because they are frequently a huge expense that you are required to expend to be able to exist in a lot of places.

Econ 101 in this case assumes that time and money are fungible in any particular increments and that the money they earn doing whatever they are optimal at is greater than the cost of the specialists services.

Example someone making 20 bucks an hour needs a professional service that requires 3 hours of work for a professional at a cost of $900 learning to do so ineffeciently for 5 hours then spending 6 hours seems like a, huge waste but consider.

- Just because their labor is worth $20 an hour doesn't mean that they they can trivially in the context of their current obligations convert a day off into extra pay right when they need it.

- 11 hours x 20 hours will furnish 1/4 of the money required. Even given an immediate alternative it will require 45 hours of additional work.

Incidentally if you own a home you probably ought to learn at least enough basic maintenance to fix simple things.

This is often effecient in practice.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @05:43AM (#21047320)
Yes there are transaction costs to doing anything that you pay someone else for. In the IT industry it’s just like deciding to build versus buy and using managed services. Setting up a few VMs on Linode and hosting all of your own databases, queueing systems, etc is much cheaper than buying the same from AWS, yet and still organizations pay more for AWS everyday, why is that?

Every time you go out to eat, you are paying a markup over something you can do yourself - do you go out to eat?

Would it be more efficient for me to cut my own grass and maintain my yard on the weekend than pay someone else since I can’t convert that time I save on the weekend to cash - of course. But that’s time I can spend with my wife or relaxing. I also haven’t washed my own car, preferring to go to the car wash since I got my first real job out of college.

My maternal grandfather was a “man’s man” he built his own house, could fix cars, he took his pigs to the slaughterhouse and had a ranch with cows that he maintained until close to the time he died. On the other hand, my father isn’t as mechanically inclined, always looked up to his father in law and it took him years of convincing that it wasn’t emasculating to pay someone to do something that you’re not good at.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by concordDance on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:40AM (#21046722)
You're ignoring transaction costs.

Doing a bit of maintainence can take you 2 minutes, having it done by an expert could take 2-3 man hours once all the inefficiences are considered (getting to the mechanic's shop, setting a price, waiting for things to be done, all the overhead of running and advertising the shop).

Based on my experience with talking to clients and observing them while doing B2B, if the average office worker had decent Excel and Googling skills (let alone the skills of the average vim user) they'd save a couple of hundred hours a year.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by ben509 on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:14AM (#21046608)
People do disregard numeracy if all the, "LOL, your teacher said you wouldn't always have a calculator in your pocket" memes are anything to go by.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by TeMPOraL on Monday September 23, 2019 @05:55AM (#21047383)
I guess a lot of those people end up in poverty, though probably not as many as it would seem it should, because the society does a lot of work to protect unwillingly innumerate people from exploitation, which makes it easier for lazy people to disregard numeracy without consequences.

Still, numeracy is not being able to multiply a bunch of 3-digit numbers on a piece of paper. Numeracy is primarily knowing which numbers to multiply, or add together, or subtract from each other to learn something you need, and that you can do this in the first place.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by smileysteve on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:33PM (#21045733)
Maybe you don't need to know how to repair your car, but it's easily arguable that every car driver should recognize the things happening in their cars, otherwise, they are an unsafe driver.

On the simple side of things, is your check engine light on, are you dragging your air dams, are your lights on, do your tires have any tread.

Slightly more complex, recognizing that your car is over heating, recognizing burning oil, brakes on the wear pad.

More complex, is the suspension connected to the body?

What's scary is the number of ride share drivers (and taxi cabs) that continue (are allowed to?) drive with some of these serious issues happening. even in states like California with vehicle inspections.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:45AM (#21045972)
If my check engine light is on, it shows up right on the panel, I take it to the car mechanic. How much do you have to “know” to see a light?

Most problems with cars (except maybe tread), you get some combination of an indicator light, something smells funny, sounds funny, or your car drives differently. In either case, you either take it to a mechanic or if it can’t be driven, you get it towed.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by smileysteve on Monday September 23, 2019 @10:01AM (#21049004)
To see a light and to take appropriate action when you see a light are 2 different things.

Where a single light can mean everything from you're losing 10% fuel efficiency to your car will seize and light on fire if you keep driving for 10 minutes.

Relevant fact: there were on average 152,000 car fires each year in the U.S.A and most crashes do not result in fire.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by asdff on Monday September 23, 2019 @01:55AM (#21046284)
Take a look at the top posts on /r/justrolledintotheshop and you will see plenty of examples of people who drive with their fingers in their ears and the dashboard lit up like a christmas tree. And those are only the cars that people begrugingly have brought in, probably 10 more like that on the road for every one in the shop.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @06:45AM (#21047609)
These people know something is wrong with their car and probably couldn’t afford to get it fixed. No one chooses to not get their car fixed if they have money in the bank to take it to the car dealership.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by smileysteve on Monday September 23, 2019 @11:17AM (#21049684)
> These people know something is wrong with their car and probably couldn’t afford to get it fixed.

But, without cursory knowledge of car issues, that decision is unwise, negligent at worst. A car breaking down in the center of traffic has negative externalities. A car fire (152k/year) has negative externalities. A tire or brake failure resulting in an accident has negative externalities.

Even the seemingly innocuous check engine light being on from emissions equipment has negative externalities.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @11:24AM (#21049763)
I’m not saying it is a wise decision. No one would say not paying your rent and being evicted is wise either. Poverty forces you to make bad choices sometimes.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by smileysteve on Monday September 23, 2019 @11:51AM (#21050036)
So this is where the analogy works; It's wise that the average person be able to perform moderate computer skills; similar to it's wise for anybody with a car to be able to accurately assess risk by knowing enough about cars.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by mquander on Sunday September 22, 2019 @09:40PM (#21045274)
What specialist does the labor get offloaded to, if someone doesn't know how to keep track of their data, doesn't know how to do simple research on the Internet, or doesn't understand how to secure their computer? Instead, people just lose their data, believe false things, and get pwned.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @09:48PM (#21045300)
You pay someone to do it. My uncle has owned a car repair shop for 30+ years and he pays someone to do all of the office work.

Your expertise is someone else’s “undifferentiated heavy lifting” no matter what field you’re in.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by chrischen on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:04PM (#21045385)
Well that person doing the repair work isn’t going to use some dumbed down tools. Somebody has to specialize.

Plus the point is that as cars became more ubiquitous, once esoteric skills became the norm, such as checking oil, filling up gas. At some point the baseline has to advance.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by eru on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:58PM (#21045603)
> Plus the point is that as cars became more ubiquitous, once esoteric skills became the norm, such as checking oil, filling up gas. At some point the baseline has to advance.

Yes and no. On the one hand, as early cars become more common, more people had to deal with them. But on the other hand, cars became simpler to use over time.

Tinkering with your car used to be a hobby of many people and a necessity. These days, there's not much user servicing left. (I don't even know whether you still have to manually check the level of oil? Don't they have sensors for that these days?)

Gas station pumps have also become much easier to use. It requires some intention and a minimum amount of skill to overfill your tank these days. Similar considerations apply to using computers.

Starting your spreadsheet by typing something in the DOS prompt used to be how things were done. These days, vastly more people are expected to be at least somewhat familiar with spreadsheets--it's no longer something to highlight in your CV--but starting the program used to do so has become simpler.

Similar countervailing developments have been common since at least the industrial revolution. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deskilling

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by smileysteve on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:40PM (#21045749)
> (I don't even know whether you still have to manually check the level of oil? Don't they have sensors for that these days?)

Most cars do have sensors for this, but they often fail, and even if they're working fine, tell you at a warning level, not at a full level. If you want to be a prepared driver you'd check your fluids regularly, but especially before long trips; The bonus is that the sensors can't tell you that your oil is prematurely dirty, so just by looking at it, you get more information.

This reminds me of Obama recommending people check their tires; yes, modern vehicles have tpms, but if they heed the warning, it often doesn't come on until a tire is significantly low ~20%.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @12:54AM (#21046008)
There are so many mechanics that will do free or low cost inspections for things like that, why wouldn’t I do that before going on a long trip?

Speaking of which, that’s yet another thing we pay for other people to do. If it’s a trip longer than about five hours we are flying or if we are being cheap and it’s not too far (around 6 to 7 hours) and if possible, taking the MegaBus.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by michaelmrose on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:35AM (#21046700)
Going to a mechanic to have your oil level and tire pressure checked sounds like you would spend more time driving than just doing it.

Then there is the fact that about half those places specialize in making up stuff that is wrong with dumb peoples cars to rip them off.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @02:23PM (#21051860)
We also fly out of Atlanta - the world’s busiest airport - and live an hour or more away depending on traffic. The calculus between whether it’s worth the hassle to deal with going to the airport, driving, or taking MegaBus changes the calculus considering the ceremony of getting on the plane can take an additional 2-3 hours with travel, security, and getting there early.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by smileysteve on Monday September 23, 2019 @11:49AM (#21050006)
It would be great if everybody did this!

Or even rental car companies.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by eru on Monday September 23, 2019 @04:36AM (#21046997)
Interesting. Do you know why the sensors seem to have a binary output only, as opposed to checking for full level and dirt?

If we put our minds to it, these days we can often make sensors that are much better than humans for these kinds of applications.

Btw, you are talking about the former US president Obama? Seems a bit weird for him to care about car maintenance?

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by smileysteve on Monday September 23, 2019 @09:56AM (#21048950)
It was during the 2008 campaigns with high fuel prices; He was ridiculed for the simplicity by the right, but the NHSTA estimated that 25% of American tires are under-inflated at a cost of 2.8 billion gallons of gasoline every year.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by cameronbrown on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:12AM (#21048127)
> Btw, you are talking about the former US president Obama? Seems a bit weird for him to care about car maintenance?

Why wouldn't the President care about the safety of millions of potential death traps driving to work daily?

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by smileysteve on Monday September 23, 2019 @09:54AM (#21048935)
More topical was the fuel efficiency at the time

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/aug...

Estimates were that 25% of American tires were underinflated, wasting 2.8 billion gallons of gasoline every year.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by ryandrake on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:03PM (#21045378)
Yes, unpopular opinion these days, but car owners should really know how to do at least the bare minimum of basic car maintenance. I'm not talking about replacing the suspension or re-building the transmission, but things like changing oil, brake pads, and refilling washer fluid. The very basic basics. Not only does it save you money (who wants to have a mechanic do something for $200 that you can do for $30 + a little time) but knowledge of a tool you use every day is valuable in and of itself.

Wow, -2 in 40 minutes. I knew unpopular but is it that controversial a view??

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by wildrhythms on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:17PM (#21045445)
I live in an apartment complex and park my car on the premises. I'm not allowed to change my oil on the property due to the landlord's fear of oil left on the parking surface, don't have anywhere to safely store tools or jacks to change a brake pad, and have no where to keep a half-used container of washer fluid outside of my living space (and I'd rather not keep it in my living space).

That said, I know how to do all of these things, I actually service my car and a motorcycle myself despite the apartment complex's "rules", but I think for a lot of car owners they're not in "safe" space to do their own maintenance. There's also the up front cost of buying tools. I think a lot of car owners in similar situations are relegated to taking the car to a shop for simple repairs as a result. Any advice?

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by Sharparam on Monday September 23, 2019 @04:25AM (#21046947)
Here we have self-service maintenance/cleaning places for cars (often at gas stations). So if you don't have your own driveway/garage you can rent some space and have access to tools and a place to do maintenance.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:28AM (#21048238)
I’m sure if you find a nice farmer you can also pick up a chicken, manually snap it’s neck (seen it done before, my grandfather had a farm) and cook it yourself...
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by Sharparam on Thursday September 26, 2019 @10:26AM (#21081146)
I was providing an example of what you can do if you want to service your car yourself but don't have the space where you live. Nobody says you have to if you prefer someone else do it for you.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:12PM (#21045646)
There are a lot of things I could save money on, but I make a good living developing software so I can pay other people to fix my car, press my clothes, mow my lawn, etc. I work during the week, money gets deposited in my account so I can enjoy the weekend doing things I want. We even spend extra going to restaurants so we don’t have to cook!
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by ryandrake on Monday September 23, 2019 @09:52AM (#21048922)
I guess I'm just with Heinlein on this one: Specialization is for insects. Interdependence is great if you can [currently] afford it. I sometimes pay someone to do something that I know I can do myself. I consider it a guilty luxury. But what's the plan if you run into hard times? When money stops magically appearing? Stop driving because you don't know how to keep your car functioning? Wear dirty, wrinkled clothing because you can't do laundry? Stop eating because you can't cook?

Being able to transform money into convenience is a great benefit of living in a modern inter-connected society. But it's only great while it lasts, and relying on always having this ability is a risky move. When my parents ran into hard times they raised and slaughtered hogs. When things got better we stopped. I don't think I'd be alive today if they didn't have that know how.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @10:25AM (#21049193)
If I am running into hard times I’m probably unemployed, the little money I save by pressing my own clothes isn’t going to make a dent in my inability to pay our bills - and if I am not working, I won’t be wearing clothes that need pressing.

If the hard time is temporary, that’s what credit is for. If it is systemic, I’ve got bigger fish to fry - downsizing our house, getting job training, moving near a bus line to save money on car insurance, etc.

It’s just like the BS “Latte Factor”. People are not unable to save for retirement because of $6/day Latte. It’s usually because they have high fixed costs relative to their income.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by michaelmrose on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:37AM (#21046705)
80-90% of people earn less
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:16AM (#21048153)
The average car is almost 12 years old (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/average-vehicle-age-incre...) and most people aren’t fixing their own car. That means most people can afford the maintenance needed to keep a car on the road.

As many dry cleaners that I see even in the less affluent parts of the city, people are able to afford to do that too.

Most less affluent people who do own their own home (as well as many who could afford it) do cut their own grass.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by lolc on Monday September 23, 2019 @06:14AM (#21047463)
I'm perpetually wondering about this. As I do a lot of maintenance myself (in the house and on my bicycles) and as I derive satisfaction from it I understand what you're saying. It does feel liberating to have agency in these matters!

On the other hand these jobs do take space in my life and in my mind. It is questionable whether we should "force" people to do simple car maintenance. Our society runs on division of labour and everybody places their cutover to experts somewhere else. You say they could benefit a lot from gaining some mechanical understanding of their car's operation. And I feel the same. But they may wonder why they should learn a skill that takes time away from other things important to them.

Sure I may question how they spend their time. But now we've moved away from how knowing basic maintenance is good for you to a more general outlook on life. Watching a tutorial will improve one's future life. But we can't say that watching a car maintenance tutorial will be the right thing. Maybe it's a tutorial on Excel? Which would be more in line with the topic of the article anyway.

So I agree with you in general but not in specifics :-)

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by sneak on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:37PM (#21045530)
Brake pads are not “the very basics”; they require owning a set of tools.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by ryandrake on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:47PM (#21045567)
I don't think having a jack stand and a 40x10x10cm toolbox squirreled away in a closet is that big of a hurdle. The tools required for all the examples I mentioned are extremely minimal, and the skills can be picked up by watching 10 minutes of YouTube.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:16PM (#21045664)
Or I can, drop my car off on the way to work, take the shuttle to work, take Uber home, or bring my laptop with me and earn my living doing what I’ve done for 30 years and pay someone else to do it...
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by TeMPOraL on Monday September 23, 2019 @04:14AM (#21046907)
You are a rich person with money to burn and a job that offers you time liquidity. Most people have neither, which is why - and not because of their irrationality - arguments from opportunity cost don't work as well as one would expect.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:17AM (#21048165)
Seeing that “most people” are paying someone else to fix their car, that means that most people find a way to pay other people to do it instead of learning how to do it themselves.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by michaelmrose on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:40AM (#21046723)
Nobody is arguing with you about what YOU ought to be doing. I personally disagree with this being presented as good general advice to most people who make a lot less.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by balfirevic on Monday September 23, 2019 @07:07AM (#21047713)
> Nobody is arguing with you about what YOU ought to be doing

Current subthread started with this: "Yes, unpopular opinion these days, but car owners should really know how to do at least the bare minimum of basic car maintenance"

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by michaelmrose on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:33PM (#21052677)
Car owners are a class of people that ranges from people living in said cars to the the hyper rich.

It's probable that Bezos has to give zero fucks beyond what brand he prefers. People living in their car are probably just praying it doesn't break down. In between there is a giant middle ground that composes 80% of the car owning population whose benefit derived from car know how is inversely proportional to their wealth.

Most car owners should learn the basics of how their car works and how it is maintained even if they intend to outsource that labor to others just so they aren't trivially taken advantage of. If we assume that MOST people aren't born into wealth most people could stand to learn the basics during the time when they have more time than money and then they could make productive use of this know how later.

I'm not sure how you can even argue this point.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @04:37PM (#21053330)
It’s called an existence proof. Most people don’t know anything about car repairs, yet they manage to go through life fine letting other people repair their cars.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by michaelmrose on Monday September 23, 2019 @07:44PM (#21054986)
There is an entire industry devoted into turning small regular maintenance tasks into big paydays based entirely on lies to people who don't know anything.

I don't think your existential proof is a good one. It's like proving Cigarettes are OK by noting that billions use and only millions die.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by njharman on Monday September 23, 2019 @05:37AM (#21047298)
Repairing car is comparable to debugging/writing software. You should know how to operate car, park on hill, know what all controls and indicators do, etc. a power user should know how to check fluid levels, tire pressure, be able to comprehend maint schedule and have it performed.

Most Americans are as knowledgeable about how to operate their automobil e as they are about software. That is, not very.

Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by dusted on Monday September 23, 2019 @03:59AM (#21046822)
Yes, you absolutely should. And they should make cars easier for everyone to repair too.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @06:48AM (#21047624)
Should I also know how to do my own plumbing and electrical work? Carpentry? Go out and hunt and grow a garden?
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by dusted on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:10AM (#21048104)
Absolutely. We should strive to master our surroundings. One thing is choosing not to repair your car today, because you have other things that give you greater value, another thing is not having the choice to repair it because you don't know how to. At a minimum, a human should know basic operating principles, repair and maintenance of their machines and buildings. Unfortunately, as most people chose to remain ignorant to their surroundings, manufactures get away with making devices less and less serviceable.
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by scarface74 on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:25AM (#21048221)
At what level should I know it? There is a famous essay “I pencil” that posits no one person knows how to create a pencil (http://www.joshharness.com/2012/10/nobody-knows-how-to-make-...)
Re:The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than Yo... by wrycoder on Tuesday September 24, 2019 @05:33PM (#21064859)
I can tell you how to make a year's supply of charcoal in a couple of hours. Or, how to use a knife to make a writing quill from a feather, and how to make a lifetime supply of ink from household materials.

Making a pencil is a highly fragmented industrial process, even at the 19th century level. Just making the "lead" is quite sophisticated.

There is much satisfaction in being a maker - or at least being more than just a consumer.