News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by overcast on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:29AM (#21015945)
Sorry, but being free is the reason 99% of people pirate software. This list is a good spin on putting pirates into a positive light, but the fact of the matter, is that they are stealing software and entertainment. None of which are a basic human need or right. What if you could download a Playstation or new TV, and have it materialize in front of you for FREE? This is like arguing that torrents are mostly used for distributing freeware/shareware. Sure there are some, but the rest is illegal software.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by kalleboo on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:37AM (#21016015)
> What if you could download a Playstation or new TV, and have it materialize in front of you for FREE

And in doing so I didn't deprive anyone else of their TV? I would have a TV in every room of my house.

If we lived in a post-scarcity world we would be living in the Star Trek utopia. Tea, Earl Gray, Hot.

> basic human right

IP protections are also not basic human rights. When Ug invented fire, he didn't get an exclusive right to license it out to other Neanderthals for 20 years.

Now, I'm not saying that infringing on copyright is right or moral, or that IP protections are wrong, but that it's a valid debate to what extent these things should apply, and what morality is attached. Our laws as they are today are not necessarily an embodiment of what is true morality. Just dismissing it as "stealing is wrong!" is not a strong argument. Most of us agree with taxation, but in a way that's stealing as well.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by TallGuyShort on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:46AM (#21016086)
I pay for Spotify, but then the week after I bought a new Smart TV Spotify turned off access from the official Spotify app on the new TV, and told me they were revamping it. Years later, I still can't listen to the service I pay for on the device I paid for, and as far as I can tell I've only been lied to about it. But MP3s on a flash drive work great. I used to pay for FloGrappling. First weekend I had it, I wanted to watch 3 fights and they lost sound or partial video for all of them and had spotty service the day of the event. I had the results spoiled for me before I could watch any of them. They refused to refund me any money. YouTube had videos of the same fights, recorded contrary to venue policy, so I just started scouring YouTube a few hours after fights. NBC pays tons of money to get exclusive access to sporting events and then offers inferior coverage. But I can get on a VPN and get it elsewhere, or I can torrent it after the fact.

Media companies steal from me all the time through breach of contract and anti-competitive behaviors. I'll pay for the service, and then the minute they break their end of the contract and don't care about it, it's on. I'm not going to spend money suing them or calling for charge-backs every time - someone has been offering me better service for less money this whole time.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by yummypaint on Thursday September 19, 2019 @11:11AM (#21016932)
Indeed. Just as their systematic fraud is within the scope of the free market, so is piracy.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by TallGuyShort on Thursday September 19, 2019 @11:40AM (#21017234)
I don't think systematic fraud is within the scope of the free market. One of the few things I think government should provide is a low-overhead way (lower-overheard than what you can do in court today, but maybe that would be abused) to hold people accountable for their word, and I would include things like this in that. But not giving chronic liars my money is close, maybe that's what you meant.

But I think the prevalence of piracy is a "smell" about the business model. If people could materialize food in front of them for free without taking that food from someone else that would be amazing. That's literally a Star-Trek-level fantasy about ideal society. As long as the food companies stay in business. In this case, the "companies" are having no problem staying in business.

Most money paid for music goes to record companies. The most successful artists make the overwhelming majority of their money from live performance and physical merchandise. So what value are the record companies providing. Distribution? No, independent artists can do that online through SoundCloud or even Spotify. Spotting talent? I think their taste sucks more often than not. I don't get it. I think really the value they provide is with connections to help an artist make it big - so in the big picture I'd say the record companies' customer is actually the artist.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by throwaway8941 on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:32AM (#21015966)
They're stealing nothing. It's really hard to take you guys seriously when you talk about "stealing" information.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by tzs on Thursday September 19, 2019 @11:16AM (#21016979)
"Steal" in English means much more than just taking physical property without legal right and without intention of returning it. Here are several examples of common, correct, usage:

• Someone says they do not like cats and have no interest in having one as a pet. A cute stray kitten shows up on their doorstep, they take pity and feed it. They fall in love with it and keep it. They might say that the kitten "stole" their heart.

• An actor playing a minor role in a play gives a performance that outshines the performance of the stars. Many would say that the actor "stole" the show.

• An employee of a rival company poses as a janitor to gain access to your lab and takes a photo of a whiteboard containing the formula for a chemical that is a trade secret in your manufacturing process. It would be common to say that the rival company "stole" your secret formula.

• When crackers gain access to a company's list of customer email addresses, passwords, or credit card numbers, it is commonly said that the data was "stolen".

• Alice is Bob's fiancé. Mallory woos Alice without Bob's knowledge. Alice elopes with Mallory. Most would find it acceptable if Bob said that Mallory "stole" his fiancé.

• A team that has been behind since the start of the game but wins on a last second improbable play is often said to have "stolen" the game.

Outside of court documents, statutes, law review articles, and your final exam in an IP law class, using the word "steal" for willful copyright infringement is common and correct usage.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by Karunamon on Thursday September 19, 2019 @01:06PM (#21018212)
>using the word "steal" for willful copyright infringement is common and correct usage.

The problem here is that we're talking about legal usage at the end of the day. "Copyright infringement" is a legal term, as is "theft", and on this matter, the supreme court already ruled.

The short version is that someone made a business pressing and selling Elvis records without the rights to do so, and the license holder tried to get him for theft. SCOTUS basically said no, copyright infringement and theft are not the same thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(1985...

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by logfromblammo on Thursday September 19, 2019 @12:46PM (#21017987)
So... English has a lot of metaphor-based idioms.

As copyright infringement is a matter of law, the literal legal context is the only one that matters.

I have seen a lot of people desperately trying to make a moral equivalence between theft and copyright infringement on the basis of dictionaries and thesauruses, and it just doesn't fly as an argument.

When you copy something, you are not dispossessing the current owner. The only reasonable way to translate theft into the world of intangible goods is as "plagiarism" or "counterfeiting".

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by vorpalhex on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:50AM (#21016115)
I've consistently bought something legally, and either lost access (service shut down, copyright issues removed the item from the service, etc) or was unable to actually access it after paying, and got no refund.

Nowadays I buy all the media I can (the restriction always being availability, usually region locking but occasionally something being too old), and then I immediately pirate a copy and usually consume the pirated copy since there's no DRM nonsense and I can actually get to my damned content.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by overcast on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:54AM (#21016165)
Your situation is the 1%, and that's awesome. You support the creators, AND you get a copy for yourself that is the most convenient. There is just NO WAY everyone else is doing that though. People have not purchased the thousands of movies they have on their 4TB hard drives.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by anoncake on Friday September 20, 2019 @05:49AM (#21024896)
I don't think this is a great situation/course of action.

- Depending on your jurisdiction, you may break the law anyway and risk trouble. - By buying something that you don't actually use, you effectively donate to a for-profit entity. To me at least, that feels very wrong. Donating directly to the creator would be different but since DRM is involved, you probably pay a middleman. - Even worse: by paying for DRM-infested media, you encourage the use of DRM.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by theK on Thursday September 19, 2019 @11:11AM (#21016929)
Ditto, if you compute long enough you are virtually guaranteed to live the frustration of artificial boundaries brought to you by DRM. We really need to get over this topic as a species and head forward towards free, unassailable information access...
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Thursday September 19, 2019 @10:04AM (#21016255)
That is a rather broad brush you seem to be painting with. But I can only speak for myself.

I have disposable income. I haven't pirated in a good while ( gog and steam making it mostly pointless -- though I did uninstall steam recently for other reasons ).

One of the game I was considering ( borderlands 3 ) is coming out on epic store with restrictive drm Denuvo. Now I can afford it, but ever since certain company that shall remain nameless decided to rootkit my PC, I became less than forgiving about drm. Hell, torrent may be the only way to have drm free experience on some games.

I am not asking for free. I am not making gaming a right, but I expect that as a customer I am treated seriously. I am not. Torrents even out the playing field, cuz clearly no one cares what me as a customer thinks. Torrents put the fear of god back in the executive types.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by res0nat0r on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:42AM (#21016050)
This is already being shown via an article from yesterday: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190320/07442041832/ironi...

Everything available everywhere for $12.99/month isn't feasible so folks are going back to piracy, even though signing up for a handful of streaming services one time is easy. Folks just don't want to spend the money per month it would take to watch everything they like.

This was always the inevitable outcome of trying to do a la carte TV and approach the original cost of a monthly Comcast bill.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by falcolas on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:58AM (#21016207)
It’s not “everything available everywhere for $13”, it’s “most things available some places for $13 plus $7 plus $97/12 plus...”

That is, even if you get the Disney premium package, you still need to rent netflix, Amazon prime, Hulu’s ad-free experience, CBS, NBC, HBO, and ever other nickel and dime streaming service out there.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by res0nat0r on Thursday September 19, 2019 @11:45AM (#21017295)
Yes, what OP is mentioning in that folks are pirating again not because of "convenience", but because free is cheaper and this was always the real reason.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by falcolas on Thursday September 19, 2019 @02:12PM (#21018921)
I disagree - if anything this highlights exactly how inconvenient streaming has gotten:

- Maintaining 7-8 active subscriptions

- Finding the right service that's streaming a particular show

- Hope they haven't implemented some sort of time limitation so you can never watch episode 1 of a show again

- Paying more than cable for that privilege

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by res0nat0r on Friday September 20, 2019 @01:01PM (#21028880)
Signing up for a recurring monthly service one time with a user name and credit card number takes 5 minutes. Folks are now just making excuses to pirate because they like free stuff without any consequence of getting in trouble. It would be a lot easier if folks would just admit it vs. all of this pretzel logic that's getting harder and hard to believe as the years go by and content is easier to legally obtain (but have to yes pay for).
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by overcast on Thursday September 19, 2019 @02:46PM (#21019267)
If there were two identical torrent services, with the same content, except one you had to pay, what percentage of people would choose the pay site?
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by lolc on Thursday September 19, 2019 @08:10PM (#21022041)
A few confused people would pay. But why should anybody pay if the service is the same?

If on the other hand one service paid the authors for licenses, curated the content, offered consistently good availability, performance, and convenience, and was without malware, I guess a fair share of people would pay. In fact a lot of people do pay for exactly these reasons.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by overcast on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:51AM (#21016128)
"Folks just don't want to spend the money per month it would take to watch everything they like." Exactly my point. I get why they are doing it, but not for the idealistic reasons OP referred to. People will always choose free over paying for something. It has nothing to do with whether they can afford it, or it has DRM, or they want to "try" it before they buy it. Before the internet/torrents, everyone had no problem dumping tons of money into cable. When VHS came on the scene, everyone began copying movies and distributing them.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by lawl on Thursday September 19, 2019 @10:50AM (#21016698)
I don't think it's for idealistic reasons either, but I fully believe piracy is a service problem and not so much free vs paid.

I honestly can't remember the last time I pirated a PC game. Steam is just more convenient than pirating a game. And okay, when I was a kid i pirated games because I simply couldn't afford to buy them.

I had a spotify subscription for quite a while, but they seem incapable of making a working music player. So now I'm buying albums on bandcamp and 'find' the missing ones online.

Netflix here is so garbage, it just flat out made me stop watching movies and TV shows, I just watch youtube/twitch instead these days.

As soon as your service is better than piracy, people will pay for it.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by overcast on Thursday September 19, 2019 @02:43PM (#21019231)
So the question is this, if there was two versions of a popular torrent site, equal in every way, except you had to pay for one to get the same content. What percentage of users would choose to use the pay site? I suspect a small fraction.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by lawl on Thursday September 19, 2019 @03:10PM (#21019552)
> So the question is this, if there was two versions of a popular torrent site, equal in every way, except you had to pay for one to get the same content. What percentage of users would choose to use the pay site? I suspect a small fraction of a percent.

That's not the question at all, no. I said you need better service than pirates. And that's absolutely possible, as steam shows.

Meanwhile spotify is busy losing my offline songs for no reason when i'm abroad and can't really stream because of roaming and netflix refuses to give me the original english audio.

I never had a problem with downloaded songs just disappearing when i bought an album from bandcamp or a youtube video refusing to play in english.

Using netflix and spotify is way easier than some kind of setup with Kodi or whatever people use, but they need to stop crippling their services. Some people pirate stuff instead, I mostly just stop consuming content where i'm treated like shit even after paying.

Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by overcast on Thursday September 19, 2019 @03:42PM (#21019892)
Unfortunately, it's not Netflix so much crippling, as it is all the content creators trying to get a bigger piece of the pie. It was inevitable, there will never been a single place to get all of your media. Even Steam has lost high profile games to Origin, Uplay, and whatever other half dozen or so nonsense services there are out there. I'm sure as shit not going to torrent pirated copies, so I reluctantly install them all if I want to play the game.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by res0nat0r on Thursday September 19, 2019 @11:46AM (#21017300)
Agreed.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by matz1 on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:50AM (#21016121)
Agree. I would 100% steal if by doing so giving me something I want but doesn't cause me any trouble or inconvenient. Software piracy fit very well here.
Re:Swiss Copyright Law: Downloading Stays Legal, No Site Blo... by sunstone on Thursday September 19, 2019 @09:48AM (#21016102)
As a linux user I'm not aware of any software that I want that I would have to pay for. I guess I'm in the 1%.