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Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by nickpeterson on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:07AM (#21006178)
I don't keep tabs on quantum computing at all, but I get the distinct feeling that it isn't going to turn into anything important. Is there any reason to believe this will be relevant to regular developers in the next 20 years?
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by hannob on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:24AM (#21006366)
No, absolutely not.

If quantum computers happen (which is still a big if) then mostly two things will happen:

1. Cryptographers will have to switch many of their algorithms and things like TLS will get a bit slower and will need a bit more data transmitted.

2. It's interesting for science, e.g. for simulations.

For the regular dev I'm pretty sure it won't have any meaningful impact.

Also even if quantum computers happen they won't be on our desks any time soon. It'll probably more like "you can rent a QC for specialized tasks in the cloud, but it will be relatively expensive and if you don't really need one you'll use something else".

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by ganzuul on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @01:46PM (#21007938)
You should already have switched to AES256 or better. The data can be captured and processed once a machine is available.
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by cyphar on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @02:04PM (#21008164)
The risk with quantum computers is with public-key cryptography (where all modern PK crypto is broken with a sufficiently-powerful quantum computers). It is believed that attacks with a quantum computer against symmetric-key cryptography (like AES) gain no better than a square-root improvement (meaning that doubling key sizes eliminates the risk).
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by ChrisLomont on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @04:39PM (#21009906)
>where all modern PK crypto is broken with a sufficiently-powerful quantum computers

This isn't true - only methods based on Discrete Log are at risk, which includes RSA and ECC, but there are a lot of PK algos that are not at risk, like NTRU.

Here's a bunch of stuff related https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-quantum_cryptography

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by mjevans on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @05:54PM (#21010666)
With 'the unknown' I prefer to focus very strongly on where known and theoretically known truths are.

Based on your statement (I don't recall offhand), it might be said that it is widely believed RSA and ECC algorithms are vulnerable in a world where quantum computing is plausible. The safety of other systems would require a more rigorous proof; the absence of known vulnerability does not imply safety.

I am not an expert in this field, but the understanding I have from the last time I spent an afternoon reading about it might be summarized as:

* Known/Suspected vulnerable systems use "classically-hard" problems with vulnerability based on small key (or subkey) size.

* Most of the 'theoretically more secure' systems make the working set size large enough, and complex enough, to eclipse the scope of stable quantum computers.

* Thus, the two attack vectors to consider for 'post quantum' cryptography are currently unthinkably large systems or weaknesses in algorithms that allow for attacking a subset which does fit within a quantum system.

If my understanding/memory is incorrect updates would be very helpful.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by ChrisLomont on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:03PM (#21012863)
The other systems are provably as secure on quantum computers as they are on classical computers. Quantum complexity classes are well mapped out, and it s known certain things cannot b one faster on quantum. Related to crypto, only systems reducible to DLP (well, technically Hidden Subgroup Problem but only for certain groups) are affected. This has the rigor of mathematical proof: it’s not handwaving.

And many systems do not reduce to this.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by cyphar on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @05:50PM (#21010635)
PQ-Crypto is still a very young research area. There is no widespread (or even niche) use of PQ-Crypto algorithms, no consensus on how safe any of the proposed algorithms are (and many proposals were found to be exceptionally broken -- on classical hardware -- within weeks of their submission[1]). I'm not really sure it's fair to say that just because there are some on-paper algorithms (which have no usage outside academia at the moment) that might solve the problem that it's false to say that "all modern PK crypto is broken with quantum attackers".

But if you prefer, you could imagine that I said "all modern PK crypto [that is actually in use today] is broken". Because, at the end of the day, that's all that really matters.

[As an aside, for RSA the security is provided by the hardness of factorisation which also breaks under QC attackers, not discrete log (it's discrete log for DH, and EC discrete log for ECDH).]

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmnQR3_qWg

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by sweis on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @07:27PM (#21011612)
It not exactly a young research area. We have had post-quantum public key cryptosystems based on linear codes for over 40 years.

Classic McEliece (https://classic.mceliece.org) was created in 1978 and is in the 2nd round of NIST's PQ-crypto contest ( https://csrc.nist.gov/projects/post-quantum-cryptography/rou...).

The PQCrypto conference started 13 years ago: https://pqcrypto.org/conferences.html

Chrome ran large scale experiments with NewHope support 3 years ago: https://security.googleblog.com/2016/07/experimenting-with-p...

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by ChrisLomont on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @10:57PM (#21012828)
Shor factoring for RSA works by period finding, which is all modern PK crypto discrete log. Read the wiki page.

I wrote a decently cited paper summarizing all this when I worked in quantum computing research around 2005, on arxiv. Track it down if you’re interested. I’ve followed the field for decades, giving talks once in a while on it. So I do know a bit of the details.

The computational power of QC is very well studied. It is certain that it cannot crack certain (most) problems any faster than a classical computer. Thus algorithms not isomorphic to the few problems QC is better at are just as secure on both classical and quantum computers. There is consensus on this - there is no question about it.

>all modern PK crypto [that is actually in use today]

NTRU is an IEEE standard, and is in wolfSSL, which is on many platforms. NTRU is also used in many commercial products from chat to relays.

Other non DLP methods are also used in commercial products and standards.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by cyphar on Thursday September 19, 2019 @03:55AM (#21014234)
> Shor factoring for RSA works by period finding, which is all modern PK crypto discrete log. Read the wiki page.

But is it not the case that the original Shor algorithm was specifically about using periodicity for integer factorisation (and the wiki page for "RSA problem"[1] also refers to integer factorisation, not discrete log).

> It is certain that it cannot crack certain (most) problems any faster than a classical computer.

Yes, I was already well-aware of that. My point was that the overwhelming majority of PK crypto used today depends on the hardness of problems that are exponentially accelerated by QC algorithms.

> NTRU is an IEEE standard, and is in wolfSSL, which is on many platforms.

Okay, maybe then it has some non-academic use. But the overwhelming majority of PK crypto in use today (TLS, PGP, the vast majority of E2EE systems) is not secure against quantum attackers. Can we agree on that at least?

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_problem

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by ChrisLomont on Thursday September 19, 2019 @08:29AM (#21015507)
>But is it not the case that the original Shor algorithm was specifically about using periodicity for integer factorisation

Periodicity is discrete log.

Discrete log is defined as given a mathematical group G, a generator g in G, and an element h in G, find the power of g that gives h. This is a logarithm, over a discrete set, a finite group. This is equivalent to finding the power of h so h^r = 1, since given either, the extended euclidean algorithm gives an efficient way to get the other number. This number r is called the order of h, and there is no (in general) known classical efficient algorithm to do it.

This can be easy or hard, depending on the group.

Shor period finding is taking a the integers mod N (which is a group, called an abelian group, about the simplest class of groups), and an integer a, and finding the power r of a that is so a^r is 1 mod N. This is exactly the discrete log problem. You found the order of the element h.

Shor is a special, easy case of the more general problem - he solves it efficiently for Abelian cyclic groups, but it has been extended to many, many other groups.

In fact, researchers realizing this was exactly the general problem Shor solved is why all discrete log problems are vulnerable to QC. His method of using a quantum Fourier transform (which has a nice generalization to groups) to find period (which FFT does nicely) is directly applicable to any group. Shor is not some odd outlier algorithm; it is exactly the core (and almost the only) algorithm QC is exponentially faster at.

>But the overwhelming majority of PK crypto in use today (TLS, PGP, the vast majority of E2EE systems) is not secure against quantum attackers. Can we agree on that at least?

Yes, but that is a far cry from your original claim. We only use those systems because they are not widely broken, and like all crypto, if one gets broken, we simply replace. This is not new.

Each is easily replaced by algorithms that quantum cannot touch (unless classical can too), so much so, that many places already use QC resistant algorithms to prevent nation-states messing with them.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by steelframe on Thursday September 19, 2019 @11:16AM (#21016989)
> only methods based on Discrete Log are at risk, which includes RSA and ECC

RSA's security is based on the presumption that factorization is hard, which is a different problem than finding the discrete log. To attack RSA you would use Shor's algorithm, and to attack ECC you would use Grover's.

See page 2 of this paper:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1804.00200.pdf

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by ChrisLomont on Thursday September 19, 2019 @10:39PM (#21022839)
See my answer above. Shoes factoring is efficient because period finding mod N is exactly discrete log.

To attack ECC it is directly discrete log, where quantum is exponentially faster than classical.

Grover reduces unstructured search from O(N) to O(sort N), only a quadratic speedup, insufficient to weaken crypto more than 1 bit out of a key length, which is too weak to be a threat.

Page 2 of your link does not state how QC attacks problems; it dies say ECC is discrete log, though.

Both systems break precisely because QC solve DLP in these cases exponentially faster than classical, and this is all that’s needed.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by steelframe on Thursday September 19, 2019 @11:11AM (#21016924)
> AES256 or better

I'm not aware of any symmetric cipher that the industry in broad consensus would consider "better" than AES-256.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by ccozan on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @02:14PM (#21008279)
But maybe then is already irrelevant?
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by roblabla on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:13AM (#21006234)
Quantum computing won't be relevant to most regular developers, in the same way machine learning isn't relevant to most regular developers. Quantum computing might end up being useful for certain niche use-cases, such as heavy number crunching that can be made faster via quantum algorithms.

As to whether it will be usable within 20 years, time will tell.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by XJ6 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @12:24PM (#21006961)
And just as every company is trying to work out how to "use AI" they'll be trying to work out how to "use Quantum" in future, with all the typical buzzword bullshit that comes with it.
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by codesushi42 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @01:06PM (#21007438)
What is a "regular" developer then?
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by thatcherc on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:18AM (#21006296)
Maybe not to regular developers, but definitely to physicists[0], chemists[0][1], machine learning people[1], and cryptographers.

[0] - https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23879

[1] - https://ai.google/research/teams/applied-science/quantum/ - see 'Near-Term Applications'

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by cooljacob204 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:24AM (#21006370)
Wouldn't the size different help with CPU density?

I don't really know much about the topic but my understanding is that it could potentially be more dense then the theoretic limit of current transistor sizes.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by krastanov on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @12:59PM (#21007344)
Definitely not. Quantum computing building blocks do not have anything that makes them inherently easier to miniaturize: quite the opposite, there is enormous amount of classical hardware necessary to support a single quantum bit. Moreover, some form of "isolation" between the qubits is necessary, so you can not just pack them together.

Current sizes of quantum bits: cavities are cm to mm scale; transmons and photonics can be much smaller, but nowhere near the size of modern transistors; ions need to be trapped in something and usually the scale is not better than the other options.

There is the hope that qubits can be made in silicon and use lithographic technologies, but then at best we will reach the density of current CPUs (but such a thing is science fiction at the moment).

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by jerf on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:33AM (#21006448)
It hard to know if that theory is going to translate into reality. The machinery required for isolating the qubits, configuring the qubits for a computation, and reading out the qubits at the end may prevent very much scaling.

Science fiction has hypothesized about quantum computing that involves macroscopically-sized bits of carefully constructed matter running a number of qubits best described with scientific notation, but it's not clear how one would set up problems or read anything out of such a thing.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by mattrp on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @12:33PM (#21007050)
Isnt this everyone who is coding these days? ;)
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by pferde on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @01:21PM (#21007638)
What about the vast legions of web developers?
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by 52-6F-62 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @03:30PM (#21009082)
I eagerly await the "quantum web".

Wait.. patent pending. There's probably an unreasonably large some of money to be made being able to sell that label to unwitting trend-hoppers.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by ashelmire on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @01:43PM (#21007910)
I guess some consider those of us building programs that actually do something useful for a business purpose to be "fake programmers".
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by codesushi42 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @02:28PM (#21008425)
So other programmers don't build useful things? But websites are always useful?
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by vasco on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:12AM (#21006228)
I'm also very unaware of actual papers coming out of the field but it does seem like it'll serve similar purposes to FPGA type work, where if you need to optimize a certain workload and you have the budget, you'll probably offload some code paths to a quantum computer / expansion-card. I do get the feeling that the "regular developer" won't have to deal with it or think about it any time soon.
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by pulse7 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:15AM (#21006268)
It depends on the number of qubits they will achieve. The larger the count, more relevant will it be. But if it stays low, the impact will be low...
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by TallGuyShort on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:17AM (#21006281)
Yeah I was impressed that they had a fleet of quantum computers this size. Turns out I'm well over a decade behind on my sense of how many qubits one should have...
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by GrayShade on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:19AM (#21006313)
What's a good number of qubits to have in order to outperform a classical computer in a useful application of quantum computing?
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by dtwhitney on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:22AM (#21006343)
my understanding is a qubit is roughly the equivalent of a transistor, so we've got a long way to go. That said, "53-qubit" seemed like a weird number and strayed from my understanding, so take my comment as a starting point for more investigation.
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by jacquesm on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @12:00PM (#21006732)
A committee was involved somewhere.
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by tw53bitquantum on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @12:52PM (#21007264)
53 bits is the significand in IEEE754 (Double precision FP).
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by asdfman123 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:20AM (#21006334)
I'm not sure about the next 20 years, but quantum computers are really good at running calculations in parallel and finding a result. I'm not 100% sure I'm accurate, but I believe if an algorithm is a good candidate to run on, say, a Spark cluster, a quantum computer would be much better at it.

I think the biggest change will be that quantum computing can really kill at machine learning, upping the numbers of nodes in neural networks with an exponential relationship to the number of qubits.

It might turn neural nets into a neat toy that Facebook uses to show us sort-of good ad predictions to something that really cuts into a wide range of things that only humans are capable of doing.

Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by lacker on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:25AM (#21006381)
Quantum computers are not generically good at all parallel problems. They have better asymptotic runtime for “brute force search” type problems, where you know there is some answer but you have to guess-and-check repeatedly. Roughly they change a 2^n brute force algorithm to a 2^(n/2) algorithm in that case. The main area these problems are important is cryptography.
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by asdfman123 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:54AM (#21006659)
So what you're saying is I should short sell Bitcoin?
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by insulanus on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @02:13PM (#21008261)
You can read more about this issue here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Quantum_computing_and_Bitcoin
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by henryw on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @03:48PM (#21009261)
The article says "Attacking Bitcoin keys would require around 1500 qubits". So with 28 of these, Bitcoin is compromised?
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by whaddawhat on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @04:27PM (#21009752)
No, you need 1500 coherent qubits, in a single system.
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by krzat on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @12:28PM (#21006994)
Would it be possible to evalute n randomly generated neural nets to find the best one?
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by Arelius on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @01:41PM (#21007872)
Maybe in theory, but you'd at least have to fit the entire neural net into the width of the computer. So we'd need a maching with millions of qubits? That's a bit hard to fathom.
Re:IBM will soon launch a 53-qubit quantum computer by tempay on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:28AM (#21006409)
> if an algorithm is a good candidate to run on, say, a Spark cluster, a quantum computer would be much better at it.

This is not true. Some parallelizable tasks will benefit from massive speed ups but most won't.