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Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by raxxorrax on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:20AM (#20983716)
There is no way any European government is strong enough to grant it. Still, important to rub this fact in their face regularly, since many base themselves solely on appearances.

I hope we see more people like Snowden, even if that kind of work comes at huge costs. Overwhelming parts of the press failed in covering this topic too.

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by luizfzs on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:40AM (#20983888)
Tangentially related: some conversations between a federal judge and federal prosecutors have been leaked to Gleen Greenwald in Brazil. On those conversations, they colluded in cases where the judge gave the prosecutors some leads on how to help make a case about a person, that happened to be an ex-president.

To no surprise, nothing has happened to them so far (it's been about 3 months since the first publication), but the journalist, who is only reporting, has been a target of several attacks, including some homophobic comments from the current president and president's family.

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by bilbo0s on Monday September 16, 2019 @10:20AM (#20984257)
I admire Greenwald. I certainly think the world would be a much better place with more journalists like him.

That said, Greenwald is also a perfect example of why raxxorrax is correct about most journalists not covering issues like the ones you guys have brought up. State level baddies out to stop you is a very serious proposition. They target your friends, your family, your property. Nothing is off limits to these people, they'd probably off your grandmother if they thought it would confer them advantage.

I respect what the guy does, but raxxorrax is right, that stuff comes at a high cost. It's dangerous in the extreme, not just for you, but potentially for your 7 year old niece too. I can understand why reporters choose to cover other issues instead.

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by mcv on Monday September 16, 2019 @11:28AM (#20985015)
It's bizarre that this is even an issue in supposedly free democracies with freedom of speech and rule of law. Is the veneer of civilisation this thin among our officials?
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by salawat on Monday September 16, 2019 @11:40AM (#20985162)
Remember that there is only so much ability for the judiciary branch to make decisions, no shortage of cases, high barriers for action, and a lot of time spent even getting the bureaucracy to act and actually integrate the outcome of decisions.

There is a lot of room for irreversible damage before your grievance is even heard.

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by GVIrish on Monday September 16, 2019 @10:35AM (#20984433)
The biggest hurdle at this point is, what does any European government have to gain from granting Snowden asylum? He was already granted asylum in Russia, so he's presumably safe at the moment. I'm sure it'd be nicer to live in France than Russia, but that's no reason for France to spend political capital on Snowden.

If a European government was staunchly against government surveillance overreach, maybe they could do it as a statement in support of their values. But why worsen diplomacy with the US (and the Five Eyes nations) when you don't have to? Any country against out-of-control gov't surveillance can simply mind their own affairs in that spirit without getting involved with the Snowden issue.

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by java-man on Monday September 16, 2019 @10:53AM (#20984646)
Somehow this comment triggered the image of Chamberlain waving the paper in front of the crowds in 1938 [0].

I know, my country is far from being Germany at that time, but we do have a very colorful character at the top, exhibiting somewhat similar tendencies.

Think of the chances a "country against out-of-control gov't surveillance" has against the power of a certain three letter agencies that get an order to pressure the said country. Think of [1]

[2] https://www.historyextra.com/period/second-world-war/munich-...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional...

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by hollerith on Monday September 16, 2019 @12:29PM (#20985753)
>The biggest hurdle at this point is, what does any European government have to gain from granting Snowden asylum?

Preventing the Russians from extracting information from Snowden that they haven't extracted already.

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by blaser-waffle on Monday September 16, 2019 @04:32PM (#20988270)
Why would France care about this? Unless Snowy had secrets about their country, why would anyone care? That's a lot of political capital spent with little return.

Plus, Snowden already blabbed about what the US was doing, why should they think that he hasn't already spilled the beans about other countries?

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by yetiofparis on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:27AM (#20983766)
+1. Grant Snowden asylum and get a 10% tariff for free!
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by _visgean on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:37AM (#20983859)
afaik you cant tariff single EU country without enacting the tariffs on the whole EEA, not sure if US would go in that direction...
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by yetiofparis on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:59AM (#20984048)
I believe he could; that's why tariffman was considering taxing french wine. https://www.politico.eu/article/trump-says-tariffs-on-french...
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by _visgean on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @10:42AM (#20995680)
yes, but the response to those tariffs would be similar tariffs from whole of EAA, no?
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by ineedasername on Monday September 16, 2019 @10:10AM (#20984150)
Unless there's a trade treaty stating this, then the US is not beholden to EU rules. Even if there is a treaty, they generally all give the US the ability to ignore their provisions if it is an issue of national security, and it's under that claim that the current administration has issued tariffs already.
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by _visgean on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @10:41AM (#20995673)
Yeah, what I meant is that EU would respond as single economic block...
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by erentz on Monday September 16, 2019 @06:02PM (#20989006)
How would that work?

Say the US applies a tariff on wine imports from France. What happens next? Does every other EU member in solidarity start self-applying the same tariff to their wines and sending that over to the US tax service?

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by _visgean on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @10:41AM (#20995664)
No, I think the EU - EAA would respond by enacting similarly sized tariffs on US products.
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by jacquesm on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:59AM (#20984051)
It should be clear by now that reason has left the building.
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by mcv on Monday September 16, 2019 @11:35AM (#20985101)
I very strongly want to believe this is not true. European governments can take their own decisions on issues like this, and can't isolate a single EU country for sanctions of whatever sort.

But most EU countries tend to have a very strong separation between the government and the judiciary, so even if the government supports asylum for Snowden, the judiciary might decide to honor an American extradition request. Although many EU countries don't extradite when there's a risk of death penalty, unfair trial, torture, or anything like that.

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by gizmo686 on Monday September 16, 2019 @11:59AM (#20985410)
Do any of those extradition exceptions apply in this case.

The only one I have ever heard allaged in this case is "unfair trial". But the details of that are: 'US law does not have an exception that covers Snowden's actions".

I happen to agree that the US should have some form of public interest exception, but as a legal arguement it doesn't make sense. No one would argue that a murderer cannot get a fair trial because there is no victim annoyed me exception.

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by Bartweiss on Monday September 16, 2019 @01:21PM (#20986386)
At least four exceptions could be invoked.

1. Unacceptable punishment. This could certainly be invoked, since Snowden faces Espionage Act charges. The current charges don't carry the death penalty, but the possibility of further charges might be raised. But as with Assange, it wouldn't bar extradition; the US simply agrees not to seek the death penalty and then the process continues. Solitary confinement could also arise here.

2. Lack of dual criminality: the Espionage Act is extraordinarily broad, and I don't know whether France's espionage/treason laws are comparable. But since Snowden faces theft and computer charges which have clear dual criminality, I don't know how this would proceed. The US might have to agree not to pursue Espionage Act charges, but you'd have to ask a lawyer.

3. Unfair trial: this is subjective, and not covered by the US/France extradition treaty. The European Court of Human Rights has stated that a merely unfair trial is not a bar, and requires a "flagrant violation of human rights", but France could potentially apply a narrower standard. And while unfair trial isn't a basis to reject a US extradition, it is a basis to grant asylum, which would take legal precedence.

There is a good candidate here: the Espionage Act bars any question of whether the information was justifiably secret, bars defendants from introducing key evidence in their defense, bars the defendant from discussing their intent, and doesn't require proof of real or even potential harm to convict. France could argue that Snowden faces conviction over harm which was both unintended and impossible in the course of exposing an illegal action.

Of course, this would again be moot if the Espionage Act charges were dropped (although not if asylum was granted first). And it could be tough both legally and politically depending on how France's most secretive prosecutions are structured.

4. Politically motivated charges: this both grounds for asylum and a treaty bar to US/French extradition. It's also incredibly subjective, so it certainly could be invoked by a French court.

Snowden's actions don't fall under any of the explicit categories for which political extraditions are required (those are things like attacking diplomats). The US could argue they fall under the "serious harm" clause, but that's neither clearcut not an actual requirement to extradite. (It merely must be taken into account by the surrendering nation.)

France isn't terribly likely to claim this, since the programs and agencies Snowden exposed generally align with French intelligence interests. But a court probably wouldn't have much trouble justifying the finding: Snowden exposed embarrassing actions like spying on foreign heads of state (including France!), US judges have said some of the exposed programs are probably unconstitutional, and he contradicted official testimony to Congress. Combined with a charge that explicitly excludes defenses of public interest, government error, or harmless action, it would be easy to argue the US is using the trial to prevent scrutiny of political misbehavior.

None of that is going to happen, obviously, and I'm not taking a stance here on whether it would be correct. But there's at least one extradition bar which could be easily invoked and justified if someone decided to do so.

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by mcv on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @04:48AM (#20993018)
This whole discussion has made me wonder how someone like Roman Polanski has managed to evade extradition for so long. That sounds like it should have been a much more cleat cut case for extradition. There was an extradition case in Switzerland at some point. Would Snowden be safer there?
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by Bartweiss on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @12:14PM (#20996929)
That's a good question, since it's clearly not a political case. Some quick reading says there are two factors, neither likely to apply to Snowden.

France has refused to extradite Polanski because he's a French/Polish citizen, and neither country is obligated to extradite citizens. (If the refusal is purely citizenship-based, they're required to refer the person for domestic prosecution on request. It's not clear to me whether this applied or happened.)

Poland and Switzerland were both open to extradition (Poland declined to apply the citizenship exemption), but courts in both countries refused over issues with Polanski's trial and prospective sentence.

Polanski's case did start in the US. His attorney arranged an extremely lenient plea bargain of 5/6 charges dropped and 90 days psychiatric evaluation, which he accepted when he was released from prison after 42 days. After that, things get very messy. The exact terms of the bargain were unclear (90 days or time served). The original judge has been accused of misconduct. Subsequent judges have made legally-worrying comments like threatening to delay sentencing to increase time in jail.

Switzerland rejected Polanski's extradition over ambiguity between "90 days" or "time served", and the USA's failure to provide clarifying records. The rationale was that the judge had potentially committed to time served, and extradition isn't available after a punishment (probation doesn't count) is completed.

Poland rejected extradition over the behavior from the original judge and prosecutors, plus the behavior of subsequent judges and alleged destruction of records.

"Unfair trial" is a possible defense for Snowden, and Switzerland would probably be one of the safer places in Europe for him. But a speculative claim of an unfair trial is quite a bit bolder than the Polanski decisions, which hinged on claims of actual misconduct during a trial.

Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by emmfr on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @11:26AM (#20996304)
Part of it is because Polanski has French citizenship and France does not extradite its own citizens.
Re:Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum by sjtindell on Monday September 16, 2019 @04:17PM (#20988151)
Thanks for the breakdown. Snowden faces the possibility of lifelong solitary confinement in the US from what I understand, which is a fate worse than death in my opinion.