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Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by userbinator on Saturday September 14, 2019 @04:06PM (#20973399)
Tesla mentions that the mechanical components of the traditional wiper blade create a lot of friction, which requires more power to the motor that moves the arm back and forth.

I thought it was the friction of the wipers themselves on the glass that takes the most power...

In any case, some research reveals that typical wiper motors are <50W, which even if that was reduced to 0, would be an insignificant fraction of the total power draw of an EV, the motor powering the car being capable of over 200kW (200000W). I doubt this is going to have much of an effect on the overall range.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by simias on Sunday September 15, 2019 @07:14AM (#20976704)
I think it's fairly obviously mainly a marketing move. These wipers (judging by the drawings) look cool and futuristic. If they ever implement them I'm sure that's going to be the main motivation.

I can be very critical of Tesla but if there's one thing they achieved it's making electric vehicles that look cool. I don't think many teenagers saw a Prius as an aspirational vehicle but I'm pretty sure you could find Tesla posters in many a bedroom.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by gist on Sunday September 15, 2019 @04:26PM (#20979301)
> I think it's fairly obviously mainly a marketing move.

I wonder though if it's the right marketing move and the right deployment of resources.

Car manufacturers found out a long time ago that car sales are not driven by these types of improvements. Cars are purchased emotionally and to a lesser extent functionally. Obviously a Tesla is an emotional purchase since it doesn't really make sense for most buyers to burden themselves with the higher price and inconvenience of an electric car. This seems a great deal like a little icing on the cake of 'we are just a better purchase down to this type of detail'. That's separate from the GP assertion that there is little power savings.

Sure it gets employees thinking of power savings (similar to when Apollo was done everything mattered down to the last detail). But the development and implementation of this is not trivial and it will take meetings and decisions and testing. What else could be done with those resources?

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by npunt on Sunday September 15, 2019 @06:59PM (#20979964)
The sum of many details that stir emotion is a whole that is emotionally compelling. If cars (or any consumer product) are purchased emotionally, and this feature is perceived as cool and futuristic, surely this will incrementally add to unit sales.

See also the Model 3's AC vents. Whatever their utility & whether its better than traditional ones, they are cool and futuristic and do their part to help the car stand out from the pack. Start adding all these up and you have something.

Car companies outsourced all these types of parts years ago, which severely limit their ability to pursue these types of innovations. That made economic sense when they were competing against organizations with similar cost-cutting strategies, and are a product of the era in which those choices were made and the business climate that encouraged those choices, but it leaves them at a disadvantage when a company takes a very different, tech-driven, vertically integrated approach to product.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by mlyle on Sunday September 15, 2019 @06:54PM (#20979935)
I think what he's saying by it being a marketing move is to try and generate reactions of "even the wipers are crazy high-tech!"
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by Udik on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:01AM (#20977025)
The only possible thing I see of practical value in this solution is that it might (might, not sure I understood well) reduce the amount of moving parts and gears. Essentially the entire motion would be controller electronically, no gears or motors.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by balfirevic on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:31AM (#20977114)
Electronically controlled motion by means of magnetic fields is a motor.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by close04 on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:07PM (#20977849)
Given the current reliability of classic wiper systems I don't think this is the improvement. Part of the reasons classic wipers have multiple moving parts (basically motor + rack and pinion) is that you want to guarantee they stay in sync and never overlap. You can put 2 simple motors on them for similar effect like the Tesla design. Tesla's solution focuses on design rather than better technical specs.

The claim that "the electromagnetic moving block induces minimal friction" says very little considering you achieve the exact same effect with a classic wiper arm mounted on a single electric motor. You probably want more than one arm anyway.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by kenhwang on Saturday September 14, 2019 @05:38PM (#20973980)
For 50W, you may as well dim the infotainment display and turn off the music for more power savings.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by majewsky on Saturday September 14, 2019 @06:35PM (#20974286)
That's a worse slogan though. Compare "Now with 10% more efficient windshield wipers!" and "Now with 10% dimmer screens!"
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by Scoundreller on Saturday September 14, 2019 @07:58PM (#20974642)
Usually when it’s raining there isn’t much need to run the display at full brightness. It’s largely a wash.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by drusepth on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:43PM (#20978072)
Why not dim the screen _and_ have more efficient wipers? ;)
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by geomark on Saturday September 14, 2019 @08:50PM (#20974846)
"It’s largely a wash."

I see what you did there.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by Brakenshire on Saturday September 14, 2019 @08:02PM (#20974658)
Hm, even LED TVs use something like 30W, don’t think you’d get much out of dimming a tablet sized screen.

50W for 5 hours is 250Wh, which is a mile extra range. That’s worth having.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by matt-attack on Sunday September 15, 2019 @03:42AM (#20976076)
What’s funny is all of these trade offs have always applied to ICE cars as well, but for some reason no one cares. Blasting your radio shortens your range even in a gas vehicle. Running your wipers shortens your range even in a gas car.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by userbinator on Sunday September 15, 2019 @02:17PM (#20978629)
The range of an ICE car is not as big of a concern as with EVs, giving that they already have a substantial range, "recharging" is quick, and fuels are very energy-dense.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by jondumbau on Sunday September 15, 2019 @07:54AM (#20976825)
I'm not much for electronics. Can you explain how playing the stereo affects mileage?
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by wffurr on Sunday September 15, 2019 @08:02AM (#20976849)
Additional power draw on the accessory circuit places increased load on the alternator which in turn causes the engine to run a little harder than it otherwise would. Thus burning a little extra fuel.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by jondumbau on Sunday September 15, 2019 @08:10AM (#20976872)
Cheers, alternators are essentially magic to me. Id have presumed they were generating 'enough' power at all times the engine was running.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by whenchamenia on Sunday September 15, 2019 @10:06AM (#20977257)
They produce based on current draw, but have a maximum output, usually around 60-85a for and older car, to 120-240a at 14.4vdc for a newer car or truck. There is no permanant magnet, so the coils require power to generate power. Its quite interesting.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by fyfy18 on Sunday September 15, 2019 @11:34AM (#20977673)
Further to this the 12V battery effectively acts as a big capacitor while the car is running, to smooth out the power that is available.

I found this out the hard way a couple of years ago. My 12V was dead, yet I managed to jump start the car and get it running. I thought it would be ok to drive to get a new battery, as long as I kept the engine running high enough. After a couple of km the dashboard lights started to dim, so I tried reving it as high as I could, but the battery wasn't able to buffer the power and supply the ignition system, so the engine stopped. It was rush hour and I was in the middle lane, so it wasn't a particularly fun wait for the tow truck.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by NeedMoreTea on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:06AM (#20977046)
In the old days of lower power alternators (or really old days of generators), and lower power engines, the revs would drop noticeably, and the note change, when you turned dip lights on, aircon or even occasionally - in smaller cars - the heated rear demister! Made it very obvious the engine was working harder.

Now that tickover and fuel injection is computer controlled or we have EVs, and there's a far heavier electrical load in all cars all the time, you never notice any more. They all take power, and decrease fuel efficiency.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by ricardobeat on Sunday September 15, 2019 @05:56AM (#20976412)
"some reason" being you can just add an extra liter to the fuel tank, not the case for batteries.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by kenhwang on Saturday September 14, 2019 @08:32PM (#20974778)
Tesla's speaker system is 200/560W. So it's possible to get to 50W just from screen and speaker savings. And that's assuming constant worse case use of the wipers: high speed and full load like you're driving through a waterfall. Pulling up a spec sheet for a wiper motor, it looks like normal load is only supposed to draw ~6-10W.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by close04 on Sunday September 15, 2019 @06:54AM (#20976642)
On the other hand even a 1 mile (probably less) saving over a 5 hour (~200-250mi) trip through the rain might as well be a rounding error regardless of the fuel used. Many other methods for achieving the same saving are not as flashy though.

I imagine the most important way is to ensure optimal tire pressure at all times. Many people tend to ignore this even when having pressure sensors at hand which leads to a whole lot of wasted fuel.

The reason wipers only received minor optimizations over the decades is because they work well, are cheap and enviably reliable. So any new wiper system design has a high bar to pass, beyond using new tech.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by jerf on Saturday September 14, 2019 @09:12PM (#20974935)
This sort of thing is why I refer to "the noise floor" in these sorts of discussions. It's not that it's untrue that it may save a mile of range, it's just so dominated by other factors that it doesn't matter. Your human cognitive spotlight is focusing on this one fact, and it may be "true", but that doesn't make it important. It's not worth engineering effort to save amounts of power that will be casually wiped away by any number of little things.

(Sometimes you can bind together several little things into one big one worth doing, but human intuition is still often broken by the factors of magnitude involved. 6 %.0002 things still don't add up to anything significant, for insurance, even if it may feel like six things ought to matter.)

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by rumanator on Saturday September 14, 2019 @08:34PM (#20974785)
> 50W for 5 hours is 250Wh, which is a mile extra range. That’s worth having.

That represents about 0.5% of a Tesla's advertised range.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by dannyw on Sunday September 15, 2019 @04:54AM (#20976259)
You do 10 of these things and you have 5% better range, more than your competitor who ignores 0.5% savings.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by mlyle on Sunday September 15, 2019 @07:02PM (#20979974)
Calling it 0.5% is generous.

* Only when it rains. (It's worthless the rest of the time)

* Only if all of the motor power is saved. (Presumably the new mechanism uses some power)

* Only if the motor is running at full power the entire time it rains (even on "high" this is not true).

* Only if range is not otherwise impacted by the rain (nope).

If it rains all the time, and the above are all true-- yes, it's worth 0.5%.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by drusepth on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:45PM (#20978087)
While I agree with you and am excited for whatever improvements can be made, I think the most likely retort to this argument is "While you're worrying about 10 0.5% savings, your competitor is focusing on optimizing things that actually matter."
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by phkahler on Sunday September 15, 2019 @07:52AM (#20976819)
The maximum power of the car is not relevant to range. A Tesla uses between 200 and 300 Watt-hours per mile if I recall correctly. A Watt-hour (Whr) is a one watt load used for an hour. If it takes you 5 hours to deplete your battery, a 50W load for 5 hours will use 250 Whr. You will lose 1 mile of range because of it.

When doing motor control work and dyno testing, one of the challenges is measurement of mechanical power (and even electrical) because you need to measure up to -200kW but you care about differences of 10s of Watts.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by mehhh on Sunday September 15, 2019 @08:07PM (#20980209)
Comparatively, it takes me about 20 watt hours to 40 watt hours per mile to get around in hilly Seattle at a cruising speed of 20mph to 30mph.

Heavy cargo & towing can push my power usage up to 50 watt hours per mile. Note that all numbers are based on no pedaling.

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by hadlock on Saturday September 14, 2019 @06:11PM (#20974172)
Silicone wipers naturally leave behind a thin silicone film on the glass. Once this film is in place, the water serves as a pretty decent lubricant so long as it's raining.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by frosted-flakes on Saturday September 14, 2019 @06:18PM (#20974204)
You can test this by putting your wipers on high when the windshield is dry, then spraying washer fluid. The speed will increase dramatically.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by Scoundreller on Saturday September 14, 2019 @07:58PM (#20974643)
I’ve found that a windshield at a shallow angle and RainX can negate the need for wipers at high speeds.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by BoorishBears on Saturday September 14, 2019 @11:28PM (#20975396)
It can negate the need for a roof at high speeds, which has saved me on many road trips

(but be careful about driving fast in the rain)

Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by mikro2nd on Sunday September 15, 2019 @08:05AM (#20976858)
Much more significant to me is the clear vision it affords when you come up behind a large truck/semi in wet weather. Makes passing at least possible, as opposed to being stuck, unable to pass, in a cloud of dirty water for long stretches of time.
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by LoSboccacc on Sunday September 15, 2019 @06:12AM (#20976465)
i wonder how high pressure air nozzles would fare in this application. have a small reservoir of water dispersant that get nebulised from the nozzle themselves every box and then and just push water around with the nozzles at low speed
Re:Tesla has applied for a patent for a new electromagnetic ... by otroqueccorre on Monday September 16, 2019 @10:21AM (#20984272)
Definitely. In my opinion, it is a marketing strategic movement to show the innovation levels of Tesla company, but for sure, this new system is not going to change the world as we know.