News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by tannhaeuser on Saturday September 14, 2019 @01:11PM (#20972218)
> not familiar with the specific mindsets and the history of this decision

I think Monsieur Macron has put this onto the agenda when Libra was announced. I'm not disagreeing with the decision and have similar concerns as you, but I'm still uncertain whether the state should even have the ability to block these and other things in general. Most of all, I miss a British voice here (as, sadly, not very much longer an EU member), and see this as a preview for where things are going with France getting more weight as the UK is leaving.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by glitchc on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:29PM (#20972748)
The primary purview of the state is geography (borders) and taxation (monetary policy). Allowing foreign money to be the primary medium of exchange directly challenges monetary policy.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by bko on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:51PM (#20972906)
> Allowing foreign money to be the primary medium of exchange directly challenges monetary policy.

Who said anything about a primary medium of exchange? Should dollars be disallowed as well? How about bitcoin? Starbucks gift cards?

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by gjulianm on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:03PM (#20972973)
Let's be honest, if Libra takes hold as Facebook wants it to, given the power Facebook already has over communications, ads and social networks, it very well could affect the capability of states to exert their own monetary policy. Not a single one of the examples you made had such a real possibility of being as big as Libra could be.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by kortilla on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:05PM (#20972985)
It won’t. Germany already doesn’t have control of the monetary policy for the currency it uses (the Euro). Monetary policy != taxation.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by gjulianm on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:38PM (#20973209)
It has control as Germany is part of the Eurozone, the ECB is subjected to the EU treaty, operating under its guidelines, and is accountable to the European Parliament, in which the people of Germany have a say. Maybe it is not as accountable as we wish it were, but it is far from what Facebook would be.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by squiggleblaz on Monday September 16, 2019 @02:12AM (#20981514)
Isn't the Bank of England privately owned? Or perhaps it merely was privately owned. If Facebook does this, they had better be prepared to be nationalised.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by erikpukinskis on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:01PM (#20977804)
Is “a vote in” and “control” really the same thing?
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by ivan_gammel on Sunday September 15, 2019 @05:07PM (#20979495)
In case of Germany it’s very close to be the same thing.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by devcpp on Saturday September 14, 2019 @05:51PM (#20974064)
EU has many checks and balances, is governed by Germany and other like-minded countries, and has given lots of guarantees as well as an option to leave. If Facebook decides to discuss on that level, maybe an actual agreement could come out of that.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by tripzilch on Monday September 16, 2019 @08:05AM (#20983210)
Facebook can come and expect to discuss on the level of trust that a country gets when it has existed for less than 2 decades and has been treating its citizens/users like an authoritarian dictatorship surveillance state. There are a number of other parallels, and none of them put FB in a good light.

It's not going to be a very amicable discussion.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by insulanus on Saturday September 14, 2019 @11:40PM (#20975441)
If the EU goes tits up, Germany will be using marks again before the month is out. The EU could never have been started if member states had to give full control of monetary policy to the EU Council.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by bko on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:12PM (#20973035)
Facebook has a non controlling stake in Libra. Libra Foundation is an independent, not-for-profit membership organization. Do you feel a similar threat of non-profits that try to give financial opportunities to people around the world?
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by gjulianm on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:32PM (#20973169)
Libra Foundation is a foundation established by Facebook with members like Mastercard, PayPal, Stripe, Visa, Booking, Vodafone or Uber, among others. Calling it a non-profit is a technicality. It is a currency controlled by for-profit organizations. It doesn't have anything to do with actual non-profits.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by riking on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:29PM (#20973152)
Are you (1) employed by the Libra Foundation or Facebook, (2) in possession of a large Libra stake, or (3) duped by the marketing and in possession of a large amount of free time?
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by Smithalicious on Saturday September 14, 2019 @04:35PM (#20973594)
Not everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill. Responding to a legitimate argument with some kind of absurd accusation will always make you look like you lost the argument.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by throwaway2048 on Saturday September 14, 2019 @07:02PM (#20974414)
Except you know, shills exist, and are real, so lets not make up some kind of even lamer "Godwin's law" about it.

Doesn't mean its (always) sensible to accuse people you disagree with of course.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by fourthark on Saturday September 14, 2019 @08:14PM (#20974704)
Well, it's already one of the site guidelines...
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by bko on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:40PM (#20973227)
1. No. I have a facebook account but I haven't posted in years

2. No. I don't think its available yet. Its not really meant to be a speculative investment since it's backed by a basket of stable currencies. Although it may be like a closed-end mutual fund where the investment could trade below or above net asset value. But I wouldn't recommend speculating on some price increase even if it takes off

3. No, I'm just interest in cryptocurrencies read the white paper [0]. I suggest you do the same. It's pretty interesting. I do have a fair bit of free time though

[0] https://libra.org/en-US/white-paper/#introducing-libra

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by mehrdadn on Sunday September 15, 2019 @05:07AM (#20976299)
Did they not lose you as soon as you read "blockchain"?

Their blockchain neither has block nor chain as I seem to recall. If the company is already lying in their whitepaper, what exactly are you expecting from the real thing?

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by kortilla on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:04PM (#20972978)
Taxation isn’t monetary policy. You can tax without even having your own currency.

Monetary policy is entirely about currency control for inflation, etc.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by AdrianB1 on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:13PM (#20973044)
See Montenegro, the country that has no own currency, but uses Euro: they have no particular problems because of this.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by insulanus on Saturday September 14, 2019 @11:49PM (#20975472)
Montenegro has a population of about 600K. Its annual GDP is $12 billion.

There are also small countries that are pegged to the US dollar.

When you are a small-potatoes nation-state, and have a non-diversified or small economy, it is a great idea to use a larger, better established, currency.

* It's more stable * Trade is easier * More than 3 banks accept your currency!

The incentives of the nations controlling the euro are well known to Montenegro, and they trust that those countries will keep the euro stable.

Libra is a whole different ball of wax. It's not just a currency. When you use it, you are tied to Facebook's terms of services, Facebook's desires, and Facebook's fate. Your individual citizens could be locked out of the economy for reasons that have nothing to do with your nation's laws.

If Google and Apple wouldn't agree to use Facebook-dollars for all their transactions, I don't see why a company would agree to.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by mikhailfranco on Sunday September 15, 2019 @02:47AM (#20975931)
Also Ecuador uses the USD, with a GDP of ~$100bn.

There's a big difference between having a currency pegged to another, and not actually having a currency at all, and using physical foreign currency for everyday transactions.

Pegs can be broken and may be hedged with FX futures.

The second situation is a much stronger existential commitment, which makes it more reliable and predictable. Reinventing a new national currency is a high barrier, which cannot be hedged directly in the FX markets (although sovereign CDS might be close enough).

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by erikpukinskis on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:06PM (#20977842)
I don’t think you are tied to FB’s TOS. Nor their fate. If FB went bankrupt, Libra would still operate?

Not sure what you’re trying to get at.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by espadrine on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:26PM (#20972729)
> I'm still uncertain whether the state should even have the ability to block these

My reading of ECB publications makes me believe that they don’t want to block these.

Ultimately, governments are mandated to protect the wealth of their electorate. A system in which they have no recourse, even indirectly, against volatility (the preservation of wealth) and stability (the preservation of payment services) is one that they must supersede.

SWIFT was forced to block transfers to Iran. Libra is like SWIFT, but with more control, as they also act as the RTGS (real-time gross settlement system).

Imagine if your country’s currency stopped working because it was added to sanctions lists. Or got increased fees.

A private company is ultimately subdued by the government of the countries it is incorporated in. They apply laws and executive orders against them. This kind of power asymmetry between countries is dangerous.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by insulanus on Saturday September 14, 2019 @11:52PM (#20975485)
That's a good point. Besides the potential dangers of allowing a tech company (one with no ties to your country) to run the money supply, there is also the understanding that you (as a smaller country) are inviting even more U.S. monetary policy into your country.

People may decide against that.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by arethuza on Saturday September 14, 2019 @01:21PM (#20972291)
"not very much longer an EU member"

I don't think there is much chance of Brexit this year, and a pretty good chance that it will never happen.

Mind you - always a chance that we'll simply get thrown out for being incompetent at running a country...

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by eloff on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:41PM (#20972832)
The chance of the latter seems to be rising, EU leaders seem to be running out of patience with making Brexit extensions.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by scoobyyabbadoo on Saturday September 14, 2019 @11:01PM (#20975309)
Yeah it is very peculiar how the British elites was able to establish the Mandate for Palestine to give Jewish people their own state but haven't been able to establish something giving British people their own state even after it was explicitly requested.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by withoutboats on Sunday September 15, 2019 @07:39AM (#20976788)
Mods: This user's posting history makes clear they are an anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist. Why have you not banned them?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20972062

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20918028

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by dang on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @05:56AM (#21003687)
Because we didn't see any of this. We can't moderate what we don't see. That's why the site guidelines ask you to flag comments that shouldn't be on HN, and in egregious cases to email [email protected]. To flag a comment, click on its timestamp to go to its page, then click 'flag' at the top. (You need karma > 30 before flag links appear.)

Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21003570 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21003591 for more.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by withoutboats on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @06:34PM (#21011130)
Thankyou.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by scoobyyabbadoo on Sunday September 15, 2019 @11:00AM (#20977487)
Please assume good faith and discuss the topics directly. What is it that you find debatable about my comment? I've always made good faith efforts at productive conversation whether someone agrees or disagrees with me on something
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by erikpukinskis on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:11PM (#20977859)
“Assume good faith” doesn’t mean “ignore evidence of bad faith”.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by lostjohnny on Monday September 16, 2019 @05:19AM (#20982308)
let it go.

HN mods are not here for justice, they'll never admit they are wrong.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by scoobyyabbadoo on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @02:06PM (#20998260)
>HN mods are not here for justice

Is the polite and free discussion of ideas not justice?

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by scoobyyabbadoo on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:45PM (#20978089)
What evidence of bad faith are you referring to? Interesting how you and "other people" going through my comments have no actual objections to the content of what I say. Hard to have a productive conversation when all you have are dismissive remarks and insults.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by erikpukinskis on Sunday September 15, 2019 @03:12PM (#20978945)
Sure, I will try to unpack my thoughts.

You go after Jewish people as a class, rather than specific institutions controlled by Jewish people, which I think is bad faith argumentation. If you criticized Israel, for example, or some specific set of banks I would be ok with that.

I admit I would not have the same reaction against another person criticizing “white people” as a class. But I believe I am justified in that because whiteness is not an ethnicity, it is the practice of denial of ethnicity. That makes it a specific institution not a group of people.

I am vulnerable also to accusations of hypocrisy because I sometimes criticize men as a class. Maybe that should be out of bounds, (probably is out of bounds on HN) as men are clearly a real biological group and not a concept.

However, masculinity (as opposed to manhood) is not a biological reality, it is a system of identity constructed to hold childbearing women in a sex class (i.e. submitting to control of their bodies). So to the extent that men identify with masculinity as opposed to just having a penis and some hormones, I would say we are also open to being attacked as a class, and lose our protected status as an actual “tribe” of people.

Although as a side note, I do suspect that when masculinity was originally invented it was quite possibly an identity constructed for the protection of men as an actual ethnographic class of underserved people. Pregnancy does confer actual power and patriarchy I suspect was invented to counterbalance that. However I don’t believe it functions that way today.

I suppose you could argue that Jewishness has crossed that rubicon but I don’t see how you could credibly do without getting into holocaust denial which I would also put in the bad faith category.

Serious apologies to any Jewish people reading this who may feel by engaging these questions I am being blasé about the threat of antisemitism. I really don’t want to do that, but I also want to hold a hand out for people who are having a hard time understanding the reasoning behind the rules of liberal discourse.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by squiggleblaz on Monday September 16, 2019 @02:49AM (#20981642)
With respect, and despite being completely off topic:

> But I believe I am justified in that because whiteness is not an ethnicity, it is the practice of denial of ethnicity.

I fundamentally do not understand what that means. Surely I don't have a choice but to be white? What am I denying? It's true that whiteness is not an ethnicity, since Russians and white Americans are surely ethnically distinct - more so, I think, than white and Asian Americans or white and Asian Russians. But beyond that I can't make sense of your sentence. I wonder if it depends on a particular national interpretation of "white" that cannot be accessed by all people who might want to describe someone as "white". But it seems opaque to me.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by lostjohnny on Monday September 16, 2019 @05:23AM (#20982332)
> since Russians and white Americans are surely ethnically distinct

Are you an anthroplogist?

I bet not.

Many white Americans have slavic blood just like russians.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by scoobyyabbadoo on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @02:07PM (#20998269)
>Many white Americans have slavic blood

Is whiteness a social construct or a genetic one?

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by scoobyyabbadoo on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @02:45PM (#20998726)
>Sure, I will try to unpack my thoughts. >You go after Jewish people as a class, rather than specific institutions controlled by Jewish people, which I think is bad faith argumentation. If you criticized Israel, for example, or some specific set of banks I would be ok with that.

Just to revisit my original comment you are referring to:

>Yeah it is very peculiar how the British elites was able to establish the Mandate for Palestine to give Jewish people their own state but haven't been able to establish something giving British people their own state even after it was explicitly requested.

I am referring to the state of Israel here, though I don't have a disagreement with Israel's existence nor with the Jewish people themselves in whole or in part, instead I am criticizing that the British elites do seem to have the ability to give a people their own state (as they did in the example of Israel here) however they are reluctant to extend that same work towards the British people. So here my discussion of Israel and Jewish people is not an objection to them in whole or part, but rather an example of what can be accomplished, so as to acknowledge but stave off some arguments that throw Brexit up as if it were somehow not possible. In hindsight, I see how the explanation I gave here would have more effectively prevented any interpretation of animosity, so thank you for making that thought clear.

>I admit I would not have the same reaction against another person criticizing “white people” as a class. But I believe I am justified in that because whiteness is not an ethnicity, it is the practice of denial of ethnicity. That makes it a specific institution not a group of people.

I think I agree about what whiteness is but for different reasons, mainly because the only concrete definition of "whiteness" that I can surmise from how "white people" are treated is "white people are the only unprotected class in law and are the only ethnic group of people ineligible for any race or ethnic protections or ethnic/racially based government programs, academic opportunities, or civil rights protections". Whiteness is imposed on to "white people" by society who say that they can not apply for any protection or benefit based on their white status while all other race or ethnic groups can.

>I am vulnerable also to accusations of hypocrisy because I sometimes criticize men as a class. Maybe that should be out of bounds, (probably is out of bounds on HN) as men are clearly a real biological group and not a concept.

>However, masculinity (as opposed to manhood) is not a biological reality, it is a system of identity constructed to hold childbearing women in a sex class (i.e. submitting to control of their bodies). So to the extent that men identify with masculinity as opposed to just having a penis and some hormones, I would say we are also open to being attacked as a class, and lose our protected status as an actual “tribe” of people.

I think you've brought this up as an example of talking about people in groups and how some groups can lose protected status even if membership in that group is determined biologically. While I agree that there are biological reasons that women and men sometimes need different accommodations in both private and public institutions, if some group is being declared unworthy of "protected status" then I am weary of what you mean by that.

>Although as a side note, I do suspect that when masculinity was originally invented it was quite possibly an identity constructed for the protection of men as an actual ethnographic class of underserved people. Pregnancy does confer actual power and patriarchy I suspect was invented to counterbalance that. However I don’t believe it functions that way today.

That's an interesting analysis, clearly a Marxian perspective in how you tally up what attributes give who power and how social institutions can be counterweights to that power. However if you historically look at the founding of major institutions the fundamental units are the families/communities counterbalancing the power of other families/communities, not sexes counterbalancing each other. Democrats vs Republicans, Labor Union vs Management, Army vs Army, State vs State, Religious institution vs Vice, Religious Institution vs State, Religious Institution vs rival Religious Institution, Academy vs Ignorance, Media viewpoint vs Media viewpoint, etc. etc. etc. The logistics to even support the idea of men and women wandering freely such as stable and safe states plus enough economic opportunity for men and women to wander around freely independently from the families and communities they grew up in is a fairly recent and I think still tenuous phenomenon.

>I suppose you could argue that Jewishness has crossed that rubicon but I don’t see how you could credibly do without getting into holocaust denial which I would also put in the bad faith category.

I don't think Jews should lose any "protected status", instead I am usually point out that Jews are showing us what is possible for a community to accomplish and other groups should be able to follow the same roadmap.

>Serious apologies to any Jewish people reading this who may feel by engaging these questions I am being blasé about the threat of antisemitism. I really don’t want to do that, but I also want to hold a hand out for people who are having a hard time understanding the reasoning behind the rules of liberal discourse.

Why do you feel you should apologize to the Jews for engaging in the free discourse of your ideas? Do you feel they may enact retribution on you? Do you feel the same about other groups like the men you discussed before?

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by NicoJuicy on Saturday September 14, 2019 @08:37PM (#20974792)
To be honest, although i think it's sad that Britain left.

They were never fully in on the EU as France and Germany are ( i'm Belgian).

So i'm not sure if a agree as much with your opinion as you want :)

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by lostjohnny on Monday September 16, 2019 @05:16AM (#20982297)
> as, sadly, not very much longer an EU member

it could have been a better, less irrational, EU partner (it was never a full member)