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Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by bgorman on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:05PM (#20946133)
One thing I have noticed as I have become more aware is that many of our laws are aimed at trying to freeze a moment of time, often by piling on contradictory policies on top of each other.

Subsidize home loans Ban new construction Ban rent increases

It is no wonder why housing prices/rents continue to rise in these markets.

In software engineering sometimes conclude that a rewrite is necessary. How can we completely rewrite our regulations?

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by PorterDuff on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:49PM (#20947753)
"In software engineering sometimes conclude that a rewrite is necessary. How can we completely rewrite our regulations?"

A currency collapse or a successful invasion perhaps.

Even 'freezing a moment of time' is kind of a suspicious thing. People don't understand the present time and they sure as heck don't understand previous ones.

While fixing the plane while it's in flight is hard, I'm trusting our upcoming robot overlords to understand tax or criminal law. Accreting everyone's good ideas for a century or two was bound to result in a hairball.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by randomerr on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:15PM (#20946200)
It usually comes from a recession or a depression were rewrites are finally deemed necessary. Unfortunately unless people with common sense participate in government and we vote in selfless people a generation will suffer the consequences of our inactivity.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:05PM (#20946549)
>It usually comes from a recession or a depression...

Don't forget crime and violence. Historically speaking those get laws changed quick. That said, I don't think rent control is going to have a very direct effect on crime and violence.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by baby on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:06PM (#20946558)
Stop making housing an investment?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by PorterDuff on Thursday September 12, 2019 @12:01AM (#20947840)
Is it? As I remember, real prices only started climbing sometime after 2000.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by cabaalis on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:53PM (#20947405)
I've seen this argument before. Why shouldn't it be an investment?

1. Land is a limited resource. 2. Property improvements last for a very long time, and are incrementally improved. 3. The buy-in price is relatively high, so only very interested parties get involved. 4. It's a home for goodness sake, why would you not call it an investment?

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by manfredo on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:26PM (#20947632)
Housing cannot be both affordable and and a good investment. The definition of a good investment is a piece of property that has a price that increases over time. The nature of exponential growth means that eventually housing will become unaffordable if it is perpetually a good investment.

Society's expectation that housing is a good investment results in people taking on significant debt to buy increasingly expensive homes. The consequence is that homeowners have a huge incentive to suppress the construction of additional housing, to inflate the values of their homes. And when housing prices do fall, people's financial lives are ruined. Contrast metros like SF, Portland, and Seattle with places like Tokyo where homes can be bought for < $400,000. A big part of this is that housing is expected to be a depreciating asset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGbC5j4pG9w

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by kortilla on Thursday September 12, 2019 @02:02AM (#20948472)
You’re conflating “an investment” with “an exponentially growing investment”.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by strstr on Thursday September 12, 2019 @04:17AM (#20949180)
That's sort of the classic interpretation of investment. AFAIK, the first question most people ask about investments is "what is the expected rate of return (relative to the risk)?".

I would not describe my car as an investment, since it's basically guaranteed to depreciate. Housing could be expected to behave in a similar manner (although that would likely require a decrease in population growth).

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by kube-system on Thursday September 12, 2019 @09:57AM (#20951469)
The value of the structure does often decrease over time. The land might be a different story, if it’s a neighborhood where people want to move. Location, location, location. You can get property that decreases in value too, just move into a neighborhood in decline.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by manfredo on Thursday September 12, 2019 @11:35AM (#20952670)
A good investment is an exponentially growing investment. Any investment with consistent year over year growth % is growing exponentially. Any investment that does not grow exponentially will eventually be outpaced by inflation and is thus not a good investment.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by dredmorbius on Thursday September 12, 2019 @03:26AM (#20948904)
Who made the land?

What contributes most to increased value?

What are economic rents?

What is the perfect tax?

What is the land value tax?

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by throwawaynihil on Thursday September 12, 2019 @05:25AM (#20949584)
You cannot rationalize with Ayn Rand fetishists when it comes to sensible housing policies, and sadly, that makes up about 80% of Ycombinator people.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by test6554 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:53PM (#20947786)
When working with legacy code, one first writes automated tests.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by malandrew on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:13PM (#20947551)
rm -rf regulations/

... like Idaho did with its regulatory reset.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by roedog on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:47PM (#20947743)
A reset could be after the big one hits and we have to rebuild cities.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by baby on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:07PM (#20946147)
So are you saying that landlord should be able to double your rent like that?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pitaj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:13PM (#20946190)
Prices should increase in the case of increased demand. Prices must increase in that case if you want the supply to increase, which is the only way to actually meet demand.

It's how the market works ffs.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by cryptoz on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:20PM (#20946230)
The market is not working when actors frequently intentionally cause trauma and unexpected financial and life emergencies to tenets. The 'market' is not some divine thing that cannot go wrong; rather, trying to make the 'market' work is exactly why we have runaway climate change and incredible wealth disparity that's causing unnecessary pain and upheaval in the US today.

There's no need to swear at people, this is an interesting and complicated topic with many valid points to debate.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pitaj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:27PM (#20946275)
The reason the market is not working is because of onerous regulation by the government in the first place.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by cryptoz on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:32PM (#20946303)
Not all regulations are equal. Merely because some past law was bad does not mean all future laws will be bad. Saying that rent control is bad because past zoning (or other law) was bad doesn't make sense.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by kortilla on Thursday September 12, 2019 @02:06AM (#20948493)
Rent control has never been good anywhere. Yet places keep trying it expecting something different.

Supply and demand is one of the simplest concepts in economics and yet rent control does nothing to increase supply. In fact, it decreases supply by not shifting prices higher to induce more production.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by cryptoz on Thursday September 12, 2019 @02:20AM (#20948567)
> Supply and demand is one of the simplest concepts in economics

That's what makes it one of the weakest. The housing market does not follow a standard supply-demand curve for a number of reasons.

> Rent control has never been good anywhere.

Citation needed. Rent control has helped a lot of people find stability in a time of need, enabling less trauma, stress and improving chances of class mobility.

> In fact, it decreases supply by not shifting prices higher to induce more production.

Is this a real effect that you can measure in the real world? Has this ever happened in reality before? Or is this a theoretical concept? One that you assume plays out under ideal circumstances and that I assume are never met in real life?

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by kortilla on Friday September 13, 2019 @02:32AM (#20959729)
>The housing market does not follow a standard supply-demand curve for a number of reasons.

That would make it the first in history. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

>Rent control has helped a lot of people find stability in a time of need

So has the lottery. Doesn’t mean it’s not bad overall. The massive portion of people that don’t hit the rent control lottery (I.e. anyone who has to move) get screwed and the whole middle and upper class gets screwed by a poorly incentivized supply.

>Is this a real effect that you can measure in the real world?

Yes. Look at any place where there is rent control and you will find it still has unaffordable prices often far above the national average. It has never been a net good for society. It doesn’t increase housing supply and the pigeon hole principle should be simple enough for you to understand what that means.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by olliej on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:46PM (#20946405)
Obviously, but part of that is having your property taxed at those market rates, businesses and landlords got together to pass an amendment to the CA constitution that prohibits any part of CA from increasing the assessed value of your property at more than 2%.

You can't have it both ways: saying you should have free reign in determining the value of your property, while also claiming the government can't tax you according to that value.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pitaj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:06PM (#20946555)
I don't want it both ways.

In fact a land value tax could replace property tax in a revenue neutral fashion, and would incentivize development of property and density, rather than disincentivize those like property tax does.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by olliej on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:39PM (#20946840)
How do you distinguish land value from property value - especially given that the resource and service usage is not determined mostly by the amount of land, but rather the property on that land.

If you were to tax on the basis of land value the immediate impact would be massive increases in taxes payed in rural areas as a byproduct of the necessary increase in tax rates on land.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by rcpt on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:14PM (#20947116)
That's not what happens. Here's an example of when it's been tried: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/3/6/non-glamorous-g...
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by baby on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:54PM (#20946466)
I guess it shows how out of touch you guys are. When I moved here EVERYONE told me to find a rent controlled place. After hearing some horror stories I think you would be crazy to live in a non-rent controlled place.

Heck, I’ve never heard of non-rent control before moving to the US. No surprise there’s so many homeless people.

PS: look at what your free market did to the US healthcare.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by refurb on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:05PM (#20946551)
Of course everyone told you to get a rent controlled place. The government is mandating your landlord gives you money, so why not take it?

The point still stands that rent control is a terrible way to keep rent down, it causes a ton of problems.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by baby on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:08PM (#20946574)
Gives me money? What?

So arbitrary rent is a much better way to keep rent down? Come on...

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by refurb on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:23PM (#20946709)
Arbitrary rent? No, the market rate.

And yes, if you’re living in a rent controlled place and paying $1000 per month when the same place is going for $3000, it’s virtually a cash transfer from the landlord to you every month.

That’s why you hear about massive ($100k+) buyouts in SF.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by negrit on Thursday September 12, 2019 @04:47AM (#20949362)
It's only fair to pay market rate rent as a tenant if the landlord pays market rate property taxes. Why should the state subsidies the landlord and not the tenant?

It's mind blowing how landlords forget that the reason the vast majority of them can afford to be a landlord is because they don't pay market rate property taxes.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by baby on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:52PM (#20946953)
This is wrong. Because the landlords are still making money. If they were renting at a cost they would have sold their places a long time ago.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by shuckles on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:08PM (#20947524)
No, if they stopped making money they would convert to owner occupied as imputed rents are not controlled. Which is what happened.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by refurb on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:27PM (#20947643)
I know several landlords who are net negative on their rent. Why did they buy? For the expected appreciation.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by baby on Thursday September 12, 2019 @07:49PM (#20957695)
And that’s why housing shouldn’t be an investment
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by newshorts on Thursday September 12, 2019 @12:25AM (#20947969)
I think that’s a bit hyperbolic, land lords are not paying tenants even if they are operating at a 33% deficit.

These laws are not reducing rent, only slowing the increase yr/yr

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by kube-system on Thursday September 12, 2019 @10:10AM (#20951610)
Rent controlled places are great for the person living there. But, they’re bad for the supply of housing, which compounds the need for rent controls in the first place.

I live in a city where there are more residential properties than families. Prices are a tiny fraction of what y’all on the coasts cite. Apartments under $1000/month in trendy neighborhoods is common here. I’ve rented small apartments here for $500/month.

Rent controls may slow price increases, but encouraging supply decreases price. You can’t fix the problem until you treat the root cause rather than the symptom.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by bgorman on Thursday September 12, 2019 @10:30AM (#20951853)
The US healthcare system is not a free market. In many parts of the country building a new hospital requires government permission. Pharmaceutical drug companies are allowed to set prices at higher prices here than the rest of the world and block imports. Most customers get their healthcare from their employers (due to tax law), so they do not shop around for the best price. Doctors are heavily regulated and it is very difficult for qualified foreign doctors to immigrate to the US.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pitaj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:07PM (#20946562)
Do you really think healthcare in the US is a free market?

If you do, you couldn't be more wrong. Healthcare is the most regulated, least free market in the US.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by bdcravens on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:28PM (#20946754)
> No surprise there’s so many homeless people.

Pretty sure rent controls would have no effect on the amount of substance abuse and mental illness that plagues so many homeless.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by baby on Thursday September 12, 2019 @07:50PM (#20957702)
Yeah sure. Let’s blame it on the drugs and the mental health it’s easier right?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by bdcravens on Friday September 13, 2019 @02:36PM (#20965017)
When every scholarly piece of research cites those as reasons for homelessness (along with the price of housing), then yes, it's easy to repeat what the experts have already said.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by jedberg on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:24PM (#20946256)
Not in isolation. But if building restrictions and zoning restrictions were lifted, and supply could meet demand, then rent control wouldn't be necessary, because the landlord wouldn't be able to get away with doubling rent.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by driverdan on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:47PM (#20946411)
If that's what demand has done to pricing then yes. Where are rents increasing 100% per year?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by baby on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:09PM (#20946581)
Have you looked at the rents in SF? It is pretty insane.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by aianus on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:46PM (#20947352)
SF has extremely harsh rent control laws. In SF you are seeing the result of rent control run amok (amongst other factors).
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by bdcravens on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:26PM (#20946738)
Are they more insane than the real estate prices?