News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by tmh79 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:51PM (#20946022)
The real solution here is to build more housing, as high prices are a market signal of a shortage. While I support more unit creation more than I support rent control, in the current crises we need both. What I still can't get over is how much of CA land use politics is pure generational warfare, the olds vs the millennials, and it seems that the millennials are finally starting to win some fights.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pitaj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:00PM (#20946095)
Rent control deters the building of more housing. It's literally part of the problem.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by raldi on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:02PM (#20946528)
This bill specifically exempts new housing from its controls.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by dantheman on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:31PM (#20947246)
It can be expected to stay exempted?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by raldi on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:54PM (#20947411)
They'd have to start over from scratch with a new piece of legislation to do that.

Many of the legislators who supported it specifically cited this aspect of the bill, so I don't think such a change would make it through.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by tmh79 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:11PM (#20946178)
do you have any clue about this specific measure? Its limited to buildings that are 15 years old or older, and it limits rent increases to 8% annually, which in practice is about 1 - 3% of all lease agreements in CA, a very small amount. Commercial construction loans are based on the 15 year revenue generating potential of the proposed building, this law was created specifically with that in mind so as not to interfere.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pitaj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:22PM (#20946236)
> do you have any clue about this specific measure?

Any price control inevitably has negative consequences in the market. This is practically a law of economics.

> Its limited to buildings that are 15 years old or older, and it limits rent increases to 8% annually, which in practice is about 1 - 3% of all lease agreements in CA, a very small amount.

If it with have such minimal effect why even have it?

> Commercial construction loans are based on the 15 year revenue generating potential of the proposed building, this law was created specifically with that in mind so as not to interfere.

Then it's not as bad as it could be. Doesn't mean it's justified.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by phil248 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:18PM (#20946672)
This is simply about spreading out massive rent hikes over the course of a few years instead of a few months. It gives families time to adapt or move. The allowable increases under this law are very high.

It may not seem justified to you, but to a low income family in a rapidly gentrifying area, it means everything.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by dantheman on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:32PM (#20947256)
All you need to do is say, if you're increasing the rent by more than 7% then you need to give a years notice. That's it.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pmiller2 on Thursday September 12, 2019 @03:48AM (#20949035)
What’s a year’s notice going to do for anyone that 60 days doesn’t already?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by dawhizkid on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:38PM (#20946347)
The landlords that jack up rent more than 8% a year, at least in SF, are the commercial landlords of large apartment complexes like Avalon. At the very least this will stop the ones managing older complexes built 2004 and earlier from doing that anymore.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by SamReidHughes on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:37PM (#20946831)
> Any price control inevitably has negative consequences in the market.

And what is the magnitude of the consequences of this law? That’s what matters. It’s very small.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by slavik81 on Thursday September 12, 2019 @03:24AM (#20948888)
> Any price control inevitably has negative consequences in the market. This is practically a law of economics.

There is an exception: if the price ceiling is higher than the market price, then the ceiling will have no effect. It may be that the allowed rate of increase is high enough that it's an ineffective price control, in which case there would be minimal market distortion.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by cryptoz on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:10PM (#20946175)
Can you explain what you mean? I don't follow. Rent control is a bandaid that provides a level of stability to the lower classes. They can live without daily anxiety of being rudely defacto 'evicted' by radical, surprise rent increases.

This enables a society to continue to grow and function at a somewhat more sustainable pace, letting cities and counties grow without intense boom-bust and crash cycles, with a more stable working class, and therefore a long-term sustainable housing construction market.

I understand that rent control is no grand solution, and that we need more houses built - but I do not understand how rent control is part of the problem.

The problem starts and ends with personal and corporate greed. The rent control is an attempt at constructing a sustainable, stable society from the ashes of an out-of-control capitalism that is leaving most of its consumers in the dust.

Rent control is not part of the problem and would not deter rational actors from building additional housing - I believe it would increase it.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by ProfessorLayton on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:47PM (#20946413)
Rent control does indeed make the housing shortage worse in the following ways:

- It makes it so new renters subsidize the old ones, raising prices for newly vacant places, defeating the purpose of controlling costs. It also doesn't offer tons of protection from boom/bust cycles, as mainly those riding the boom will be able to afford absurd prices in highly regulated places like SF — Where a 1br can fetch 3.7k/mo (!!)

- "FU, got mine" attitude disengages renters from organizing the same way NIMBY homeowners do. For example, SF renters could easily outnumber homeowners to allow much more housing to be built, but ~70% of housing stock there falls under rent control.

I do want to be clear that I fully support controlling costs in some manner, however, this desperately needs to be tied to a solution that results in more housing.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by phil248 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:20PM (#20946686)
Luckily for all of us, this law will not create a new class of rent control prisoners/devotees because the allowable increases are too high.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pitaj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:29PM (#20946294)
Rent doesn't get changed daily, only when a lease is up for renewal.

Rent control deters the creation of new housing. This reduce in supply raises the price, which is bad for the poor - exactly the people it is meant to help.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by cryptoz on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:34PM (#20946322)
I was under the impression that some rents can be increased during the lease. I do not think it is only a renewal event, by law.

> Rent control deters the creation of new housing.

I keep seeing this repeated but I don't understand. Why does rent control deter creation of new housing?

> This reduce in supply raises the price

But you've glossed over why supply is reduced. I don't see any reason that supply would be reduced with basic moderate rent control like this one.

Edit: I have tripped some wire (?) and am not allowed to post any more. In response to the comment below,

> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...

That seems to be Washington, not California. According to http://www.hrc-la.org/doc.asp?id=36 it seems to read that some leases allow rent increases mid-lease.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by Litmus2336 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:49PM (#20946427)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...

I believe you might be thinking of month-to-month, which is not a traditional lease. On all fixed term leases over a month rent cannot be changed during the term of the lease.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by phil248 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:22PM (#20946693)
Which is an oddly elaborate way of saying that rent increases in California can happen annually.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by Litmus2336 on Thursday September 12, 2019 @02:03AM (#20948475)
Technically, you can have a lease of any length. I've seen 3 and 6 month leases. I'm sure it's possible to have a 24+ month lease.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by aianus on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:53PM (#20947403)
> Why does rent control deter creation of new housing?

If you have a lot of money and you want to build/buy a rental property, would you do it in a) a growing city with no rent control where your discounted future cash flows are unbounded or b) a city where there is a law placing a ceiling on your returns.

All else being equal, you are going to choose the city without rent control to build your new housing units in (or invest in something other than real estate altogether), thus illustrating how rent control disincentives new investment in housing, and specifically low-income rental housing.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by 0xB31B1B on Thursday September 12, 2019 @02:17AM (#20948554)
The problem is that this is well a well studied problem and your first principles approach to it gives us the wrong results. Rent control policies like this one (only works on buildings 15 years old or older) do not impact new housing starts.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by cryptoz on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:28PM (#20947644)
I think your illustration has failed, though, because I would very much choose b). I consider a) as an evil in the world and would avoid participating in that if at all possible. b) sounds like a really good choice for long-term investment in in sustainable society.

> All else being equal

Okay but all else is not equal, and in the real world, it is never equal. These thought experiments do nothing to improve conditions in the real world, since they are based on flawed models of how people behave.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by aianus on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:35PM (#20947680)
> Okay but all else is not equal, and in the real world, it is never equal. These thought experiments do nothing to improve conditions in the real world, since they are based on flawed models of how people behave.

By that logic, nothing affects anything else and we should all give up trying to think or plan.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by cryptoz on Thursday September 12, 2019 @12:08AM (#20947866)
I don't agree. We know that people are not 'rational actors' that maximize personal profit at every turn, and we should not base our economics around that known false idea.

I think it is wise to produce better models with new information - not to ignore everything or to knowingly use false models. People do not - and should not - act according to those 'rational' ideas of maximum profit.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by chaostheory on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @07:54PM (#20946050)
> generational warfare, the olds vs the millennials

This is a good example of that. Rent control tends to benefit the older generation at the expense of younger people and families. It does nothing to solve the actual problem of lack of housing inventory.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by tmh79 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:12PM (#20946188)
millennials in CA are disproportionately renters, not home owners. This bill will provide millennials with some extra security so they know their rent won't be spiked and they'll need to move.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by jethro_tell on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:40PM (#20946845)
until they need a two bedroom for a kid. rent control works great if you have your shit together and have no life changes coming up. If you're settled in your life and you already have a place, rent control is great, if you're going thought the life change stage of your life, rent control doesn't help to much. Rent goes up to market when you move out to go to college, then it goes back to market after you leave college to get that first job, then when you want to move into a place by your self or with a significant other, back to market. Need something bigger to start a family? Back to market. Once you finally get your shit together and ease into a stable part of life (if you haven't bought a house) your rent is stable. But it's not a big help until you're stable. So while most people are renters in the younger demographic, rent pretty much stays at market for the majority of the time through 20's and 30's. The answer is still more housing to lower the overall price of housing.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by tmh79 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:19PM (#20947147)
"The answer is still more housing to lower the overall price of housing." I am not arguing against that at all, but if we decide to go extreme SB50 style urbanize California we wouldn't see real price impacts for maybe 5 years at the earliest. What are we supposed to do between now and then, just accept 15% YoY rent increase?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by jethro_tell on Thursday September 12, 2019 @12:16AM (#20947913)
IF this was passed at the same time as laws that allow more housing and tapered off after the expected return of more houses, I'd be fine with it. But as it stands now, the idea of rent control until more housing is a pipe dream since the more housing part never seems to come.

The studies are clear, rent control is a benefit to a few but long term doesn't really add much value and instead makes the market stagnate in funny ways.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by chaostheory on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:19PM (#20946226)
imo It will still benefit the older generation more. There's now even less motivation for people to build more housing inventory to rent out. With ever dwindling housing inventory, it's first come first serve. Guess who's there first?

"Economists from both the left and the right have a well-established aversion to rent control, arguing that such policies ignore the message of rising prices, which is to build more housing. Studies in San Francisco and elsewhere show that price caps often prompt landlords to abandon the rental business by converting their units to owner-occupied homes. And since rent controls typically have no income threshold, they have been faulted for benefiting high-income tenants."

This is what would really help with the housing problem

"State Senator Scott Wiener, a San Francisco Democrat, offered a bill that would essentially override local zoning to allow multiple-unit housing around transit stops and in suburbs where single-family homes are considered sacrosanct. The bill was shelved in its final committee hearing this year, but Mr. Wiener has vowed to keep pushing the idea."

But the NIMBYs killed it for now https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/17/business/economy/californ...

> This bill will provide millennials with some extra security so they know their rent won't be spiked and they'll need to move.

I'm not sure that's how rent control works. Unless I missed something, your rent is only capped if you don't move.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pitaj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:22PM (#20946247)
At the cost of further increasing the price of rents across the board due to limited housing supply.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by tmh79 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:12PM (#20947097)
did you read the article or understand the bill? This bill doesn't impact construction finance because it doesn't apply for the first 15 years after a building is constructed (pretty much all residential construction loans use a 15 year rent projection for valuation). Additionally, the median market rent increase is a few percentage points lower than the rent increase allowed by this law. The main thing the law does is allow people who are being price evicted to be price evicted over 3 years instead of 60 days.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by melling on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @08:04PM (#20946129)
“That bleak picture — combined with three-hour commutes“

We could also consider building more, and better, mass transit.