Yes, we also went on walks, bike rides, went fishing, played in parks, hiked in the woods, climbed mountains, went to the beach, saw each other at school, played board games, D&D, and many other things.
The mall was one thing to do, among many. I see little reason to disparage those memories just because they aren't as applicable in today's society.
This sounds like Plato's Allegory of the Cave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave
Its a failure of our society for certain, but at the same time that failure seems to be trending up, there's no needles on the street / homeless camps in malls.
My pessimism might be colored by the video "Seattle is Dying" which I just watched a few weeks ago
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jun/1/drew-pinsky-...
I think of myself as a very progressive guy (son of communists and all) but this is not sustainable, it’s unfair to unload national problems on individual cities just because they are traditionally more compassionate, and it’s obviously unfair to the homeless who end up moving even further away from whatever small support network they have near home.
The NYPD also run beat patrols (uniforms on foot, in pairs) which are scarce/absent in SF and Seattle.
The idea came from a European architect who was trying to figure out how to create something that fills the same social niche of being a combination commercial center and social gathering place that you get out of the center of a European town, but adapted for the sprawled-out car-centric towns that exist in North America.
Small producers with unique offerings and shops (as opposed to chain franchises), directly integrated within the city (as opposed to an isolated space existing outside of it), a vibrant place for social and political interaction (as opposed to a place for bored teens to shop and eat fast food where nothing political ever happens and citizens are isolated consumers), plus each was unique to the city (as opposed to finding an identical (or nearly identical) mall, with the same shops, in every town in the states...
So the irony is misguided to say the least...
Not to mention that 2000+ years later one would think we could do better than Rome...
Technically we did so much better than the Romans for goods availability across broad distances - aluminum used to be more expensive than gold and platinum (once it was judged as anything but worthless). The Washington Monument being aluminum tipped was showing off US production capabilities.
Now it is used for disposable drink cans which to denormalize things a bit to how /weird/ that would be - it would be like alchemy made gold so cheap that if you dumped a sacks of coins in a beggar's container they would be upset about you pouring garbage on them".
Materially about the only thing we lack in comparison are slaves and in most places legalized prostitution.
The lack of a social space is a valid complaint as my previous paragraphs highlighted the society in which they served changed vastly. Launching your own forum as a mayor wouldn't work as it did before as the nature of transit, employment, and communication changed around it.
Malls did serve as a pedestrian stagnant oasis in a desert of unwalkable road networks. They may not be that great but they were better than many alternatives.
We still had uniqueness in city stores and shopping arcades far after the age of "advanced manufacturing and standardization", e.g. well into the 70s.
In towns like Manhattan they in fact took pride in their variety of shops, restaurants, etc. and culturally resisted malls and chains and same in several places in Europe. So it's not like "advanced manufacturing and standardization" automatically translates to malls, and bland cookie cutter one's at that.
Besides, my point wasn't that the ancient agora/forum was different from malls because of some virtuous choice - just that it was different, period. If that was out of necessity, that's fine too.
I’m not a fan of malls personally, but that attitude seems overly dismissive of a phenomenon that engaged a significant portion of the population. Clearly there is something important going on there, even if we might not like it.
But I'm sure you'll agree something can be important and popular, and at the same time detrimental, no?
I replied in earnest with a sizable comment comparing the two things (forums and malls) from several aspects (uniqueness, social function, etc), so that surely added something.
And, no, I'd say "signaling disapproval" does add to the conversation. In fact "signaling disapproval" is a large and necessary part of human conversation, and essential for forming social conceptions and hierarchies...
Laughter, family and common spaces trump all.
I never thought of it this way, but this must be most of the draw behind Disney Land.
Much as a bar's cover charge is a filter. Conversation I had a few years back, at New Years:
"Why would anyone pay $100 just to enter a bar?"
"To be at a bar with people who can afford to pay $100 to enter."
A similar role, though different mechanism, is described by Joseph Wood Krutch: "There's nothing like a good bad dirt road to screen out the faintly interested and to invite in the genuinely interested." Often recast as "bad roads make good filters".
https://www.greensboro.com/the-highway-less-traveled/article...
People grilling, kids playing, walking/running/biking/kayaking/paddle boarding and people just sitting and relaxing. Lots of social interaction.
If you’re out of grade school a mall is not an appropriate place for social interaction.
Why do you specify "out of grade school"? Isn't the fact that the mall is the go-to for grade schoolers just as big a problem? Where are kids and adults supposed to hang out in a group without having to host in their small home?
On the flip side, the indoor malls used to provide a public air conditioned space people could flock to, at least on the weekends. Much like movie theaters used to be by themselves. Now they're being torn down, and sprawling outdoor malls with mister systems are constructed. In some ways better, in others not so much.
In the end, will it really matter? The older I get the more I want to move to a smaller town and work remotely. I miss people being friendly and in less of a miserable rush overall.
Kayaking (not whitewater) and fishing are my two favorites especially if you combine the two. I usually talk to any fisherman I see and people come up to me at the ramp to chat.
A closer use case would be neighborhood centers, but in my area, those are mostly closed in the evenings or at least reserved for private use.
The local mall used to open early for older people to meet and do their daily exercise walks. Depending on the climate and time of year, parks are not always usable.
Wait, people think malls are "treasured social institutions" ? I think it's just neat to look at creepy old malls that used to be full of people. I wonder if there's a name for that? Like the thrill of sneaking into school at night when no one was there.
[1] https://www.dictionaryofobscuresorrows.com
[2] https://www.dictionaryofobscuresorrows.com/post/27720773573/...
[3] https://old.reddit.com/r/nostalgia/comments/a5ljsp/that_weir...
...regarded as treasured social institution in communities seems ridiculous to me.
So, as much as I sort of jumped to defend myself as a member of that sort of society, it's somewhat true. But how were social interactions ever handled well in the past? People interact around doing things. At times, we go out just to interact, but interaction is usually a side-effect/part of something else we're doing[2]. Prior to the internet, Amazon was the mall. You had department stores that carried a diversity of products all on their own, and specialty stores that covered the odd. As rents went up, the specialty stores disappeared and the malls all became, somewhat, identical.
The malls died partly due to the collapse of the anchor stores, but partly because they became boring. While the "anchor stores" (Sears, JC Penny, Macy's) were always important, they became the only reason to go to the mall. You knew the "mall brands" (Things Remembered, The Discovery Store, Spencer's, Wetzel's Pretzels, Sbarros) -- hell, you knew when you received a "mall gift" (a gift from one of said stores that's cheap, over-priced and an attempt at being unique). And as an added bonus, unlike all of the "modern malls", you only had to freeze, briefly, while walking from your car to the store in the half-foot of snow.
But I digress -- for me, the explanation is a little less ominous: We buy a lot of crap. When you needed something, the mall was the most likely place where you'd find it, and you'd probably find it at a price that was on-par with a discount free-standing store (K-Mart) but had a greater guarantee that all of the things you needed would be able to be handled in one trip. This brought people to the mall. As a result, in the 90s, when you just wanted to interact with someone -- anyone -- you went to the one place where there was a lot of people interacting.
It's not that "society failed to provide a place" -- it's that "society" isn't a thing. It doesn't care. The mall became "the place" because we were using it served a useful purpose. The service it provided is now provided by a more efficient means. Some of that interaction, however, is also more efficient[3].
[0] Maybe you weren't all about orange chicken at Panda Express. That's OK. :)
[1] It's funny, because as an adult, I think of the fun times/friends/experiences that we had at the mall -- mostly being teenage boys, looking at teenage girls -- but I see the whole thing as silly, and the mall always felt -- even back then -- like a bit of a "white trash place to hang out".
[2] Even when the explicit purpose is to interact such as a first date -- first dates. I've had "5-hour interactions" by accident, but the date started as "Let's grab lunch/dinner", not "Let's sit in a chair and talk for 5 hours".
[3] There's something to be said about trading the "meaningless face-to-face interaction with strangers paid to be friendly" with the "meaningless emoticon left on a curated wall in reaction to an inane comment from our closest hundreds of friends".