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Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by rhcom2 on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:41AM (#20878226)
Personally, it really sucks to get ads targeted at my mental health diagnoses.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by ghostbrainalpha on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:01PM (#20878484)
I am not excusing Google for this behavior but in case you didn't know, you can let Google know which types of Ads you don't want to see based on your profile.

(Not Joking) This was vital to me at work, because I share my screen most of the day and I started getting ads for a Vacation Cruise that was sexual in nature that were unbelievably embarrassing.

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/2662856?co=GENIE....

I would suggest turning off ALL personalized ads on your Google profile, but in case you like getting ads about Pet products and just don't want your health information shared you can just deselect all the "health", "diet", and "medicine" categories.

It really sucks to target block ads this way and you might even need to stretch to blocking categories like "family and relationships", to get all the ads you don't like.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by Nullabillity on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:29PM (#20878788)
Why not just get an ad blocker?
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by ghostbrainalpha on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:16PM (#20879292)
That's a good question. I'm a web developer in the Marketing department, so a lot of the work I do involves how ads work with pages.

Having to constantly turn off ad blocker is not only inconvenient but is also slightly embarrassing when I get called out for not looking at things the way a customer would be seeing them.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by perl4ever on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:38PM (#20883405)
It's really tedious to make a lot of websites work with an ad-blocker. I only started using one when I got some malicious ads, but I still have to disable it for almost every business's site that I need to log in to. And they break in non-obvious ways, so you have to remember to try turning it off.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by msbarnett on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:03PM (#20879141)
Well, Google is taking steps to neuter those, so...
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by summm on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:14PM (#20879267)
I would be interested in more details
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by msbarnett on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:18PM (#20879316)
See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20050173 for a link to the ublock origin author's take on Chrome's upcoming changes, and discussion
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by bduerst on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @02:09PM (#20879861)
They're not - its clickbait sensationalism.

They're changing how extensions can access web requests, in order to increase user privacy and prevent phishing. This requires all extension devs to change how they handle web requests. ublock is making a stink about how it's "targeting them", despite it being a change that all devs have to make, and you can still block ads with the new version. Adblock plus works fine with the new changes, for example.

More here: https://www.xda-developers.com/google-chrome-manifest-v3-ad-...

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by msbarnett on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @03:09PM (#20880403)
> They're not - its clickbait sensationalism

No it isn’t. Your take is absolutely inconsistent with the on the ground impact of the specific technical changes in Manifest v3.

> and you can still block ads with the new version.

Based on a static, fixed limit of URLs. That cannot be updated without resubmitting the extension to Google for reapproval. Which match using a fixed, dumb matching algorithm that Google alone controls (negating a number of the more sophisticated pattern-matching based rules UBlock Origin relies upon).

> Adblock plus works fine with the new changes, for example.

That the crappy adblocker that has largely sold out to advertisers is unaffected by this change is hardly a ringing endorsement. Ublock Origin’s dev is complaining about this new API precisely because it cripples the much more sophisticated ad blocking rules that are Ublock Origin’s entire advantage over less sophisticated, less performant, less effective ad blockers like Adblock plus.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by AlexandrB on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @02:55PM (#20880287)
> They're not - its clickbait sensationalism.

It's really not. The new mechanism for blocking ads is extremely limiting - not unlike what Safari provides. While Google's stated intention is to protect user's privacy it just so happens to cripple extensions that pose the greatest threat to Google's business. If Google wasn't one of the world's largest ad companies, perhaps their statements could be taken at face value. But perhaps in that case they would have taken the time to come up with an API that could achieve the goals of both Google and uBlock Origin.

Edit:

> Adblock plus works fine with the new changes, for example.

Adblock plus is an "ad blocker" who's main concern is protecting the interests of "good" advertisers, not those of its users.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by bduerst on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @04:51PM (#20881286)
42% of chrome extensions have abused the web requests API in it's current format, and Google has long since said they're going to change how it works to protect users' privacy.

uBlock Origin can change how they block ads for the new more secure manifest, just like AdBlock plus does. Even if you don't like ABP as a company it is an example of how it is still possible to block ads on the new more secure Chrome manifest, making it sensationalism to claim otherwise.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by gorhill on Thursday September 05, 2019 @11:25AM (#20887651)
> 42% of chrome extensions have abused the web requests API

No. The accurate quote is (my emphasis) "According to Google, 42% of MALICIOUS extensions have used the Web Request API since January 2018".[1]

Note that the source for this quote is Google itself, so they picked this one statistic for publication. We do not know what else they found which is not published, i.e. it's potentially conveniently self-serving toward their manifest v3 narrative.

I reiterate: deprecating the blocking ability of the webRequest API will break key parts of uBlock Origin ("uBO"), and will break uMatrix completely, because of the hard-coded matching algorithm of declarativeNetRequest (there are other issues) which is merely an implementation to enforce EasyList-like rules.

I know how uBO/uMatrix extensions work, I wrote them from scratch. If you want to argue why they will work fine, you will have to do better they merely repeating Google's narrative regarding changes in manifest v3.

ABP will be fine because the primary purpose of ABP is to serve as a revenue source for Eyeo GmbH through its "Acceptable Ads" product (of which Google is a partner), which can still function just fine with the declarativeNetRequest API -- as shown by it's Safari iOS version.

I am not alone in my criticism, for instance the EFF: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/07/googles-plans-chrome-e...

Chrome Web Store allows extensions with remote code execution capability[2], this is the foremost issue and it's the one they could have fixed a long time ago with no API changes. That it has not been fixed is what you should be questioning.

* * *

[1] https://www.xda-developers.com/google-chrome-manifest-v3-ad-...

[2] https://twitter.com/gorhill/status/1139306139072507906

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by Nullabillity on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @09:01PM (#20882946)
There is no privacy benefit to v3, since it still allows dynamic notification of requests made by the page, it only removes the ability for addons to inject their own responses.

It's almost like someone sat down and asked "How can we get rid of ad blockers, without impacting spyware?".

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by msbarnett on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @05:24PM (#20881581)
> 42% of chrome extensions have abused the web requests API in it's current format, and Google has long since said they're going to change how it works to protect users' privacy.

So we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater because Google's extension approval process is so dismal it allows through a large minority of abusive extensions, and this is supposed to make us feel better about a change in the API that gives this dismal and apparently near-useless approval process more control over the contents and behaviour of ad blockers?

> uBlock Origin can change how they block ads for the new more secure manifest, just like AdBlock plus does

Which, again, entails UBlock Origin moving from a frequently updated list of blocking rules relying on sophisticated wildcard matching functionality to a hard-coded, fixed-size static list of blocked URLs that are not allowed to contain any wildcards for redirecting to more secure or private versions of content, and which cannot use any other kind of more complex ad-blocking logic. A hard-coded list of dumb blocked domains that is infrequently updated only with Google's approval (via the same dismal process that allowed through 42% of abusive extensions above...) of a complete re-submission of the blocking extension, approved or rejected at their whim and leisure, because live updating rulesets will also be banned "for security".

"UBlock Origin will be able to work every bit as poorly, and be every bit as easily defeated as Ad-Block Plus' unsophisticated, frequently useless filters are, plus its rules will get updated far less often" is, again, not in any way the good thing you seem to be pretending it is.

Just some highlights about this "great" change that you're signing the praises of, discoverable from the very link you posted:

> uBlock Origin heavily relies on pattern matching, and the extension developer stated that it is not possible to retrofit his extension’s matching algorithm to meet the APIs requirement. The API would also require a complete extension update to simply update the filter list, which would be a far too frequent activity considering the frequency with which these filter lists are updated. Of course, these updates would also hinge on Google’s extension review criteria and processes.

Hmmm.

> The blocking list must be present in the extension at install time and can’t be updated without updating the entire extension. This is subject to Google’s extension review criteria and processes. This means you won’t be able to opt-out of something like AdBlock Plus’ Acceptable Ads program, as the proposed new API doesn’t allow for rulesets to be turned on or off in the same extension.

Hmmm.

> declarativeNetRequest’s redirect action can only redirect to a static URL; meaning that you cannot redirect using the new API from a pattern like “://www.youtube.com/embed/” to “https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/%2”. This is pretty much all my Privacy Enhanced Mode for Embedded YouTube Videos extension does, by the by.

Hmmm.

> Some extensions, like the EFF’s Privacy Badger that compiles lists of and blocks web beacons and trackers based on browsing activity (a method that breaks a fair number of websites), wouldn’t survive the transition.

Hmmm.

This API redesign "for security" just so happens to expertly fuck over the most powerful privacy and ad-blocking extensions, while leaving neutered crap like Adblock Plus With Mandatory "Acceptable" Ads working.

None of this is an accident. With Ublock Origin neutered out of usefulness, driving users back to Adblock Plus with mandatory acceptable ads that just so happen to whitelist Google will, of course, be a big win for Google's ad revenue.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by perl4ever on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:36PM (#20883392)
Sure, I did my best to turn off all personalized Google ads, and then every now and then I get something extremely specific, that has to be targeted at somebody. But is it based on my data, or something that correlated with me? Something not part of Google's data per se?
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by techntoke on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:51AM (#20878368)
Could you imagine being diagnosed as being paranoid schizophrenic because you think there is some conspiracy to profile and target you with advertisements based on mental health? And your doctor must be in on it because instead of listening to you they just hand you drugs and tell you to take them.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by perl4ever on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:31PM (#20883377)
I've seen online ads that mention tardive dyskinesia, which is a drug side effect that is particularly associated with psychiatric drugs such as antipsychotics. Of course, there's no way to tell exactly what algorithm/data this is based on, and whether it's my data or the data of people that I'm connected with. Seems like somewhere there should be a HIPAA violation, but that's pretty hopeless.

I think it's safe to say that anyone who is diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic is being targeted, which makes it all the more difficult to suppress feelings of paranoia and distinguish actual tracking from coincidences. I doubt there are any people who are perfectly sane driven mad by advertising, but it's quite plausible that it has a negative effect on people trying to cope at the margins.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by anonymfus on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:18PM (#20878648)
You just described Alex Jones's business model.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by techntoke on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:35PM (#20878839)
C'mon, everyone knows AJ is controlled opposition.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by body12 on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:23PM (#20879369)
To avoid this: Firefox with uBlock Origin and resist fingerprinting setting on. Use private mode whenever you don't need logins. Bonus: Use a $3/mo VPN to dodge your ISP's tracking (xandr.com and weep) or just use Tor Browser for browsing, it's pretty fast these days.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by aloknnikhil on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @02:40PM (#20880138)
If you're using Firefox, give the Firefox containers a try. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/multi-account...

Gives you everything you seek from a private session

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by michaelmrose on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:03PM (#20879142)
You could get "targeted" in the sense of a prospective employer not employing you as well.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by droithomme on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @03:32PM (#20880609)
> it really sucks to get ads targeted at my mental health diagnoses

I am extremely cautious to never look up health info without using a VPN and to never discuss health in email exchanges.

After receiving a diagnosis from my doctor some years ago for a condition, a week later I received a targeted snail mail ad for the condition using my full legal name, which only the DMV, my doctor, and the property assessor use. All web stuff, purchases, email, use a nickname instead.

I discussed it with the doctor's office. They said they are HIPAA compliant and wouldn't say more other than referring me to their privacy policy. The privacy policy like ALL medical privacy statements these days contains vague information about "sharing" with third parties and partners in certain circumstances which as written don't appear to be selling private medical data for advertising, but clearly do.

Currently when seeing new doctors I use a fake name, pay cash, and give them a phone number to a phone separate from my normal one, which I bought with cash and never associate with my own name. Works for prescriptions for the most part too since I pay cash for that as well and id is only required for narcotics.

Since then, not so many targeted ads.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by reaperducer on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @03:52PM (#20880765)
a week later I received a targeted snail mail ad for the condition using my full legal name, which only the DMV, my doctor, and the property assessor use

I had something similar happen. When I told my doctor, he blamed the drug store chain (Walgreens in this case) for selling the information. I don't know if that's true, but my doctor believes it.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by perl4ever on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:44PM (#20883433)
I was unhappy that CVS sent me promotional snail mail based on my prescriptions, but I don't know what I can do about it, since I assume they have lawyers that told them it was legal under HIPAA.

I also get text messages from them that have links that may or may not allow the retrieval of health information, which also bugs me inasmuch as there's no way to opt out (at least not without ending all text messages).

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by hello_friendos on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:46AM (#20878290)
Agree, I don't need a million ads for a useless text therapist app.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by techntoke on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:52AM (#20878391)
You obviously need therapy if you don't want the advertisements. /s
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:15PM (#20878630)
Is that how you really feel?
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by techntoke on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:32PM (#20878816)
The /s was supposed to mean sarcasm, however that is probably the direction that companies will try to take the mental health profession.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by perl4ever on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:46PM (#20883441)
Some are already offering text chat for a monthly fee as a cheaper alternative to a face-to-face talk with a therapist at an hourly rate. However, I don't know if anyone is charging for a bot yet.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by a_e_k on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @02:30PM (#20880063)
I suspect that GP was riffing on typical responses from a therapist chat-bot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by perl4ever on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:47PM (#20883448)
Of course, someone developed a script for a patient too; I think it was called PARRY. Perhaps these could be combined in an adversarial learning setup...
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by afarrell on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:32PM (#20878811)
I wish there was somewhere I could explicitly opt-in/sign-up for ads targeted at my mental health problems...or my problems in general.

As someone who hates shopping, I've been really disappointed with the quality of ad targeting for the past decade.

The ability to select categories of ads has improved things. But I wish I could just write some rule-based criteria and then take 3 hours, look through a bunch of ads, and give them ratings in order to train personalized machine learning models.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by pkaye on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @02:23PM (#20879995)
Don't know about ads but I know Google has this feature where when something new about a particular keyword comes up it will email you with the links. I use it to track new research on my own health issue.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by kerkeslager on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:08PM (#20879199)
Why not use independent review sites? Those exist for a lot of categories of shopping.

I'm not sure one exists for prescription drugs or mental health services, though--that would be an interesting idea.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by soared on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:15PM (#20878629)
Ads are not targeted at your diagnosis - that is absurd. Ads are targeted at your browsing habits, which may reflect your diagnosis. One is illegal, one is legal. If we want to have an open discussion about advertising making claims like that only hurt privacy advocates.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by PeterisP on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:35PM (#20878845)
It's not that clear-cut. If particular metrics of 'browsing habits' directly reflect health information, then it is not legal to collect and use these metrics unless very specific conditions are met (which generally can't be met in the generic third party advertiser case). Under GDPR, health data, among with some other categories, counts as especially protected data with much more stringent restrictions than the usual GDPR restrictions.

For example, if you place a cookie recording visits to a specific results page of a mental health test (e.g. a page saying "you got 14-18 points on this test which implies foobar" or get a https://www.hotjar.com/ recording of what the user typed in that test, then that would be blatantly illegal, violating GDPR article 9.1. I'm not even talking about using that data for targeting ads, the default position (if no exceptions are met) is that you're not allowed to collect and store that data.

Collecting user browsing habits is not (in EU) "legal by default" - it may be legal, but it may be not (e.g. if sensitive data are collected as in this case) and it's the duty of data controller to ensure that all the requirements are met - if it turns out that it's too difficult for you to automatically distinguish which browsing habits you are allowed to collect and which not, then the only legal option is to assume that you're not allowed to collect them.

Having your health data not be collected by random companies is an important inalienable right (e.g. privacy as one of the core rights in EU charter of human rights); while collecting and storing browsing habits of other people is a privilege, you're allowed to do that only if you can meet all the required conditions.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by soared on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @03:54PM (#20880791)
That is a fair response - the article is on European countries and I was only thinking of the US in my response.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by Ensorceled on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:30PM (#20878794)
It's absurd that you think advertisers can't generate this information:

1. Get addresses of mental care clinics and offices.

2. Geofence addresses

3. Correlate devices that visited geofence addresses (using LiveRamp data) with devices that saw your ads on Mental Health sites.

4. Bonus, look at the path on the pages to figure out what disease they were viewing when your ad was displayed if you weren't already targeting specific page content.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by soared on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @03:52PM (#20880768)
From a technical perspective its possible, but geodata companies have business rules that don't allow it. No provider will allow those segments to be created (I've tried to do it). If you reach out to placeiq, factual, oracle, etc they will turn you away.

Healthcare targeting has been severely reduced in the past couple years because of concerns like these. You used to be able to target diseases/interest in diseases/etc but can't anymore.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by body12 on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @04:11PM (#20880936)
This is a little comforting, but I doubt the secret rulebook is going to cover everyone's concerns.
Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by sambe on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @12:46PM (#20878963)
How would they access location data unless authorised by the user?

("absurd" is a strange word to use; it might be nicer to educate without condescension).

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by Ensorceled on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:19PM (#20879323)
Sorry, I used "absurd" to echo the condescension of the parent comment. Which you didn't respond to....

Location data is so easily available that is largely a commodity now, sources include GPS from "always on" apps like the Weather Network but also apps that are collecting this data without your permission. Apple and Google are constantly kicking apps that do this out of the store.

Also tricks like "local wifi" devices are being used, Apple just reduced apps ability to sniff networks for this reason. There is another response that lists some other data sources, your cell phone company being the worst offender for many reasons.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by msbarnett on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @01:10PM (#20879226)
> How would they access location data unless authorised by the user?

> > Correlate devices that visited geofence addresses (using LiveRamp data)

LiveRamp is hooked into a lot of ad services and a user's location information will routinely make its way to them. Played some ad-supported mobile game on your phone while in the Doctor's waiting room? LiveRamp has that location data.

Even if the user doesn't have GPS enabled for the game, they might have it enabled for some other background process that routinely asks for it, like Facebook or Twitter or FourSquare, who package that data for sale. Or you're on the Doctor's wifi, and most stable IPs like that are in location databases. Or they just buy it off your cell phone provider, since many happily sell location information.

LiveRamp is a gigantic business built entirely on knowing approximately where you are any time you interact with their tracking servers.

Re:Mental-health information 'sold to advertisers' by perl4ever on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @11:02PM (#20883514)
The thing is, what do you make of advertising that is very, very, specific and not aimed at a general audience...but also wrong? When someone is very certain and wrong, it means they think* they have inside information. The certainty points to it being overly intimate, yet misinterpreted.

*Please don't take this excessively literally.