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Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:02PM (#20821663)
Why can't we have both security as well as court ordered access. What would be the problems if we had 5 HSM that are airgapped and located at secure facilities. Encrypted applications (such as WhatsApp, Apple Messenger, etc) are required to submit/transmit escrow keys that are encrypted with the public keys of those 5 HSM's. After a valid court order, a law enforcement official has to physically go to one of the secure locations with those encrypted escrow keys which will then be decrypted by the HSM. This way, everyone can have secure communication, but still allow legitimate law enforcement searches when ordered by a judge.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by akersten on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:18PM (#20821854)
No, I would not call that secure communication, because it can be accessed by someone other than the intended recipient. The number of hoops they have to jump through is irrelevant.

It is not possible to have secure by definition communication and facilitate a backdoor at the same time. The two concepts are strictly mutually exclusive.

In the United States you have the amazing freedom to communicate in any language you desire (including one unintelligible to a would-be snoop), and the State cannot force you to translate your communications just because they want to hear them. We should not be so eager to give up that freedom in our digital lives.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by rubinelli on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:43PM (#20822121)
I'm surprised that Americans aren't pushing to make private and secure communication a constitutional right. Will it make it harder for law enforcement to go after "bad guys"? Yes. Just as the second, fourth, and fifth amendments do today.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by bluGill on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:20PM (#20822483)
The 4th amendment already say that. Papers and effects cleanly expand to communication in all forms even those not imagined today.

Courts say otherwise sometimes, but they have to use twisted, convoluted reasoning that doesn't really stand up to the written letter of the constitution. Given that nothing more we can do in the constitution is immune from that either so what is the point of another amendment?

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by UncleMeat on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:58PM (#20822852)
The 4th amendment grants access if a court signs a warrant. The unique challenge of encrypted communications is that there is no way to access encrypted data without a person giving up their key.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by jessaustin on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:19PM (#20823066)
You're correct to identify "giving up the key" as the important step. Furthermore, 4A is very clear that should only happen "upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The state can't cheat by pretending it has all of this for the entire populace ahead of time. The literal text of the Constitution makes key escrow impossible.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by gowld on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:50PM (#20825289)
LE doesn't need a key if they can just break the door down. So all that's needed is a key escrow system set up to broadcast when a key is accessed, so unauthorized access can be prosecuted.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by jessaustin on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:06PM (#20826328)
The "key escrow system" contains no keys, because only a chump would give up her or his key before she or he has to give it up. As addressed above, 4A specifies very particular circumstances for that, circumstances which do not apply to most citizens.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by gizmo686 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:56PM (#20822270)
The US classifies encryption as a munition. I am genuinly suprised there hasn't been a push to get it covered under the second amendment.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by bitwize on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:51PM (#20822783)
Crypto is munitions for export purposes, I doubt you can get a ruling that it qualifies for 2A protection. The law is like that. The law can classify a thing as one thing for one purpose, and another thing for another purpose. If they want to ban crypto, they could classify it as a Schedule I drug and it'd make about as much sense as classifying it as a munition.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by vorpalhex on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:36PM (#20822649)
"Sir, you're going to need an ID, a fingerprint card, and approval from the FBI before you can download that browser."
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by homonculus1 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:51PM (#20823424)
2A isn't upheld any more than 4A. States will just require a license for crypto and make it "may-issue". RSA will be classified an "assault algorithm" and banned in California. You'll have to pay a $200 tax stamp for each key, message capacity will be limited to 10 characters, and if your ex-wife claims you hit her then the sheriff can confiscate your hard drives until you convince a judge you didn't.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by throw0101a on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:51PM (#20822209)
> Why can't we have both security as well as court ordered access.

Waterboarding was treated as a crime by the US during WW2:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II

And then conveniently it was not a crime after 9/11:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Classification_i....

Access to the escrowed keys may also be conveniently reclassified in the future.

And that assumes that the law is even followed: you can't trust that the "court ordered access" will remain only court ordered. Law enforcement agencies have violated laws in the past as a matter of policy:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by jjoonathan on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:08PM (#20821737)
These people couldn't stop the OPM database -- blackmail on all of their sensitive personnel -- from getting hacked, and that's something they wanted to protect. Now imagine how good a job they would do of protecting something they resented, like the escrow mechanism in your proposal.

Yeah.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by Analemma_ on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:14PM (#20821799)
Once the United States has a backdoor key, every other nation will demand one as well, and there won't be any grounds to refuse. Which creates two problems:

- Obviously you can't reuse the same master key, so now you need 180+ keys, meaning 180+ backdoors into the system. It is ridiculous to expect that all of these will remain secure; the United States can't even secure the OPM database so even ours will probably be leaked, and countries with more bribe-prone law enforced will give it up even faster, and now everyone is pwned.

- Law enforcement are frequently the bad guys. YMMV on how often this is the case in the United States but it's certainly inarguably the case in many places abroad. Mandatory backdoors means no possibility for secure communications about dissidents and "inconvenients" in those countries.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by dredmorbius on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:25PM (#20823136)
Maths doesn't work that way.

Universal escrow == universal access. Leaking == global compromise.

There's a place for personal recovery key quorums, where multiple parts are joined to create an alternate recovery key, but that involves key management for each such key served, which is a Very Large Problem.

Might be possible to take it on, but the underlying problem of identity remains: The question "who are you?" is the most expensive one in information technology. No matter how you get it wrong, you're fucked.

Deny access to the right party: fucked.

Allow access to the wrong party: fucked.

The only advantage of security-based DoS over security-based unintended dislosure is that denied access doesn't propogate. Published data cannot be unpublished, at least not at any reasonable cost:assurance level.

Because of the key management issues, most seriously-proposed data-backdoor systems revolve around one or more of:

- Workfactor reduction in which known keys or values are used in key generation. The resulting keys are weak where the known inputs' secret elements are known, at least to state-leve actors.

- Specific escrow keys. No workfactor, just key access. Widespread key access is a Very Bad Day.

- Specified access accounts. Like above, but worse.

- Specific system bypass. Alternate paths to data access on systems.

- Alternate data submission. Various "phone home" or intercepts of in-the-clear transmisions, either through design or software/device compromise.

As a practical matter, alternate information channels (usually metadata), public data, standard detection, bug/zeroday exploitation, and various sideband attacks (Maginot compromise: don't go through, go around) tend to be used, though cryptographic attacks have some utility.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by DuskStar on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:10PM (#20821763)
Assuming those keys are truly secure, two reasons:

1. No one trusts the government not to abuse such a power. "Only usable with a valid court order" my ass.

2. The government doesn't trust citizens not to change around the escrow keys used (which would prevent them from decrypting things)

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by mabbo on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:59PM (#20822295)
"a valid court order" is an impossible task. Courts are run by judges, who are human and subject to bribing, blackmail, or being wrong.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by zzzcpan on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:29PM (#20821981)
> but still allow legitimate law enforcement searches when ordered by a judge

You can already do that by voluntarily providing access to your devices to anyone you want, including law enforcement. Other people don't necessarily share your ideology and accept that there could exist "legitimate law enforcement searches" of their private communications.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by LocalPCGuy on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:08PM (#20821738)
And when one of those keys gets out? (Which will happen)
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:12PM (#20821778)
The whole point of an HSM is that those keys cannot get out.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by w3rhn2j34oh5o on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:28PM (#20821958)
The point, yes, but it is not the case in reality:

2015: https://cryptosense.com/blog/the-untold-story-of-pkcs11-hsm-...

2017: https://cryptosense.com/blog/infineon-rsa-key-generation-bug...

2019: https://cryptosense.com/blog/how-ledger-hacked-an-hsm/

Stop trying to build scenarios where key escrow solutions are technically sound. They are not. This is an intractable problem that is not solved by these half cocked technical measures. Key escrow cannot by definition be secure, and wasting time trying to invent solutions just confuses the matter, weakens security and leaves us all vulnerable. Basically, Sssssssh, or the politicians might actually believe this fantasy.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by ska on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:46PM (#20823361)
> The whole point of an HSM is that those keys cannot get out.

On paper, sure. In practice, not so much.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by readams on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @06:27PM (#20824700)
There is basically no limit to the amount of money that it would be worth paying for a government to get those HSMs, since they could decrypt nearly all the world's communication. And the country in which they are hosted is included in the threat model. I would not want to be the one tasked with attempting to keep it secure.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by zeveb on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:10PM (#20822398)
The HSM can get out, by being stolen.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by ska on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:06PM (#20822359)
> Why can't we have both security as well as court ordered access?

Because "we've" spent decades trying to figure out a method that will actually work, and universally failed?

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by GordonS on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:55PM (#20822247)
It's a slippery slope - there would undoubtedly be a creeping escalation, with more and more agencies and people given access, and the requirements to get access relaxed. Before you know it, the CIA is hoovering up everything, local police departments have unfettered access and the local environmental agency can easily request access to anything for "reasons".

Governments have shown time and again that they abuse any power they get - I wouldn't trust them with this.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by Znafon on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:56PM (#20822262)
If reading the message require those 5 HSM, how does your recipient can read your message?
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by wmf on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:49PM (#20822764)
You encrypt the message twice so that either the intended recipient or the government with 5 HSMs can decrypt it.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by PeterisP on Thursday August 29, 2019 @10:22AM (#20829724)
That doesn't really make sense.

What if you simply claim to encrypt it twice, but instead place random noise wherever the "encrypted for gov't" data should be? If the system works as intended, it shouldn't be possible to attempt decrypting it (and thus verify if you encrypted it properly) without a search warrant based on probable cause, as the key material would be in escrow and not accessible to anybody including law enforcement and intelligence agencies before a warrant is served.

So you can't have proactive detection of that and everybody who wants to ecrypt communications with criminal intent can and will continue to do so with the same consequences as right now, where they can be pressured to reveal the keys but their communications are otherwise secure; the process would risk the privacy of honest citizens (in case if the escrow system is broken) but not hamper the bad guys at all.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by wmf on Thursday August 29, 2019 @11:50AM (#20830569)
You're assuming the bad guys can modify iMessage while the government assumes they use it as is.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by PeterisP on Thursday August 29, 2019 @01:26PM (#20831659)
Yes, exactly.

I'm assuming that bad guys can modify the software they use, which seems to be a reasonable assumption supported by practice.

And given the proposed rules of key escrow the government has to assume that they use it as-is, because doing traffic inspection to ensure that they really do so is impossible without a specific warrant, so whenever they do get a warrant and get the keys out of escrow, then that's the first moment when they can tell "ah, we actually can't decrypt Bobs messages because he's not using that key".

So the proposed naive system of simply "encrypt the message twice so that either the intended recipient or the government with 5 HSMs can decrypt it" won't work. You can have a more complicated system that works around my objections above, but that would be a different system that will also have other drawbacks. Cryptosystems are very hard in general, all small details matter, a random proposal that hasn't undergone significant expert analysis has almost 100% chance of being fundamentally flawed, and doing reasonable escrow will have all kinds of "interesting" consequences and potential attacks, I am not aware of any public proposals for the specific details of a mass-escrow system that would have reasonable consequences.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by w3rhn2j34oh5o on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:59PM (#20822863)
Or whomever has hacked the source control / build environment to replace the "5 magic HSM public keys" with one or more of their own public keys -- See Juniper Incident with Dual-EC DRBG (https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/376.pdf)

This story should be repeated whenever anyone brings up 'solutions' involved with key escrow. Bruce warned us in 2006 this was a backdoor, ten years later, we find that not only was it implemented by Juniper, the backdoor was backdoored by unknown (and potentially malicious) actors. Really, this should be the last word on why this key escrow and general cryptographic backdoors are a terrible terrible idea.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by Spivak on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @04:19PM (#20823598)
Entity that compromised a system completely and can read the unencrypted messages... can read the unencrypted messages?

In other news giving someone root access to your machine gives them root access.