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Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by nostrademons on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:45PM (#20821473)
For a while the President was tweeting from a consumer-grade Android (!) phone, likely made by China, in the Oval Office. It makes me wonder how many groups pwned that phone and have access to critical national security information.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by duxup on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:39PM (#20822081)
I used to work for a company that serviced a very secure site (military).

The rule was NOTHING electronic went in that wasn't accounted for, and NOTHING ever left. We sent people onsite with what were effectively disposable laptops that were single use items and never left the location.

Showing up at the gate with anything extra was said to be a very bad idea. It never happened so I don't know what would happen.

You drove to the site in a car with only what you needed in it. Your license, keys, the equipment you were scheduled to bring. Smartphones weren't ultra common yet, but were absolutely forbidden. The car itself was searched too even though it was in a parking lot far from anything sensitive. You were warned that anything suspicious would not be in the car when you came back (like the extra stuff rule I don't know of anyone that happened to as nobody was foolish enough to drive out with anything but a clean rental car).

I honestly think that is the only security that makes sense. That should be the status quo for some areas the White House too IMO. At least as far as meetings and etc.

Maybe one day we get physical switches that power off cameras and mics, but hard to trust anything until that day....maybe not then.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by dredmorbius on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @04:53PM (#20823864)
It's possible to do this.

The price paid is immense.

Norbert Wiener, following WWII, noted that the secure classified treatment of military R&D proved a bigger impediment for the Allies than its enemies. There were multiple independent efforts investigating the same or similar technologies who didn't know of one another and could not share experiences. At the same time, much of the information either leaked out or was available to Axis forces (or Soviets), though development lead-time made this a fairly minor concern.

J. Robert Oppenheimer had similar observations over the Manhattan Project, and there's a famous anecdote by Richard Feynman of travelling to Oak Ridge, where uranium processing and enrichment was occurring, and realising that plant practices were at severe risk of resulting in critical masses of refined material. That wouldn't have vapourised the plant, but could have resulted in deaths, meltdowns, and extensive radioactive contamination. Feynman had to fight to make this information available to plant management and workers, so that the US wouldn't unintentionally sabotage its own efforts.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by gumby on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @05:11PM (#20824013)
There's a great William Tenn Cold War short story about this about a race to the moon ahead of the enemy. Spoiler: the Army's crash mission reaches the moon only to discover that indeed, they weren't the first; the enemy already had a base. Who was the enemy? The Navy.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by ptx on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @04:16PM (#20823584)
> Maybe one day we get physical switches that power off cameras and mics

That day could be quite soon – the Purism Librem 5 is supposed to ship at some point in Q3: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/

More about the physical kill-switches: https://puri.sm/posts/lockdown-mode-on-the-librem-5-beyond-h...

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by nostrademons on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:49PM (#20822190)
I have friends that work in defense. Their experience is basically like yours - physically and electronically isolated clean rooms where you do the actual work. Nothing goes in. Nothing comes out.

Also, one of the Snowden disclosures was that apparently the NSA can power on the cameras and mics of Android phones even when the phone is off. I don't know exactly how it works, but it does, probably based off the residual current drawn from the battery and the circuitry that handles the power button. Smartphones are basically never safe, although I've heard iPhones are significantly safer than Android.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by kuzimoto on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:38PM (#20822658)
> Also, one of the Snowden disclosures was that apparently the NSA can power on the cameras and mics of Android phones even when the phone is off. I don't know exactly how it works, but it does, probably based off the residual current drawn from the battery and the circuitry that handles the power button. Smartphones are basically never safe, although I've heard iPhones are significantly safer than Android.

I mean, even if you could turn on the mic/camera, I would think you still need to possibly save it to storage for retrieval later which pretty much requires the OS to be running.

Otherwise, maybe, you could somehow transmit the data but that would require the ability to communicate with the device via Bluetooth/WiFi and for the data from the camera to be passed to the wireless interface.

Unless a device was designed with that sort of functionality, I'm not sure how the NSA could just turn that on.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by amiga-workbench on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:43PM (#20822715)
They would likely compromise the device via its baseband, and patch the operating system to give the illusion of a complete shutdown when the user attempts to power it off.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by Analemma_ on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:25PM (#20823137)
"The baseband has DMA access and so can get root at any time" is a myth that won't seem to go away no matter how many times security professionals refute it. On iPhones and all but maybe the cheapest Android phones, the baseband is exposed to the CPU as a USB device, with all the usual memory protections. You cannot patch the device over the baseband (unless there's an existing vulnerability in the USB stack or something).
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by wahern on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:37PM (#20823260)
USB device drivers are for sure bullet-proof, just like the baseband controllers are bullet-proof....

Jumping from one exploit target to another in a chain is pretty much how all modern exploits work. To say that because they would need to find an exploit in the USB driver (or some other hardware or software interface), not only states the obvious, but more importantly misses the point: it's far more plausible than most engineers intuitively believe.

The depth of modern exploit chains is incredible, and while the conceptual difficulty has gone up the pace hasn't seemed to abate, which is clear evidence that our intuition about "too difficult" and about the elasticity of the exploit supply and demand curves is woefully inadequate to accurately gauge risk.

Part of the problem is that the complexity of the systems grows at the same time as improvements in security and correctness. Sometimes it grows faster, sometimes slower, but it's dynamic.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by fulafel on Thursday September 05, 2019 @02:26AM (#20884318)
Cursory web searches seem to point away from the USB device theory. Usually the modem is integrated on the main SoC. You can't find mentions of USB associated with the recent Qualcomm onchip modems, for example.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by ptx on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @04:29PM (#20823689)
Do you have links to any of the refutations? I recall hearing that the iPhone separates the baseband, but I thought it was otherwise usually on the same chip.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by bradknowles on Thursday August 29, 2019 @12:24AM (#20826672)
I believe that there are circuits within the baseband hardware that cannot be powered off, short of completely removing the battery. And even then, there are capacitors and other technology that will store power for those circuits for a period of time.

I believe that this has actually been pretty well established in the community, but I don’t have the evidential links immediately at hand.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by strictfp on Thursday August 29, 2019 @02:06AM (#20827069)
At the very least, there's the real time clock.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by walshemj on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:24PM (#20823128)
Even working in prisons they are strict on equipment, I have a mate who does Air Con work and he had to account for very tool he took in to make sure they went out with him.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by johnnycab on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @05:15PM (#20824048)
>Even working in prisons they are strict on equipment

The tone of incredulity in your comment suggests, as if this practice is extraordinary, when it would be considered SOP ─ tools and crims behind bars make the most unlikely bedfellows.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by walshemj on Thursday August 29, 2019 @02:26PM (#20832254)
As opposed to a SCIF or going for a DV Clearance Interview a lot less strict.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by duxup on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:51PM (#20822212)
Yeah i'd be wary about the switch unless I understood it.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by gumby on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @05:13PM (#20824025)
> Maybe one day we get physical switches that power off cameras and mics, but hard to trust anything until that day....maybe not then.

With SMD parts on a multilayer PCB how do you know that that switch controls the only path to the camera?

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by tenebrisalietum on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:32PM (#20822620)
With cameras and mics, they need to be removeable plug-in items. It may make a device a millimeter thicker but I'm sure the truly security-conscious wouldn't mind.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by rightbyte on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @04:35PM (#20823730)
A mechanical switch would do it for me. I tape the camera on my laptop till then.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by bifrost on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @04:58PM (#20823902)
Or they could prevent the drivers from being loaded, like I did :)
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by 3pt14159 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:05PM (#20822350)
This has not been my experience the few times I've been invited to a "secure" room.

Do you have any idea what was being secured on the site? A research lab or something to do with analysing cyber weapons?

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by BWStearns on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:47PM (#20822744)
The environment described is pretty standard for SCIF/SAPs. The White House has different rules, primarily because some of the people there are Too Important™ to be bothered. The one time I got to visit the White House I got a tour of the situation room I was physically uncomfortable about the fact that I was allowed to bring my phone even though there wasn't a meeting in progress (though I did get to spin around in Obama's chair so I got over my discomfort).
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by Kalium on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:30PM (#20822591)
What's being described is a SCIF or SAPF. It could be just about anything classified going on in there, from intelligence analysis or weapons design to project management or ongoing network operations. There's no real way of knowing from the description.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by duxup on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:40PM (#20822680)
No clue what was happening at that location.

It was a military related site, remote, and our people were actually blindfolded from the gate all the way to the equipment needing service, and all you saw was indistinguishable from a small data center.

They had a pretty good system for keeping a tight ship, at least as far as threats from outside equipment.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by m463 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:19PM (#20825061)
A friend worked at a base years ago where cellphones were not permitted.

He said there was a shooter at some point, and nobody could call for help, so they changed the rules.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by mieseratte on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:50PM (#20821534)
> For a while the President was tweeting from a consumer-grade Android (!) phone, likely made by China, in the Oval Office. It makes me wonder how many groups pwned that phone and have access to critical national security information.

You mentioned tweeting, was he doing NATSEC-relevant work from the phone or was he using an official device for those purposes?

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by akersten on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:13PM (#20821798)
I can't speak for GP, but certainly this adminstration has used consumer Android devices for a little more than tweeting: https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/13/14597700/donald-trump-pho...
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by mc32 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:42PM (#20822706)
And previous administrations had blackberries.

I don’t think it’s possible to get high level pols to forgo their devices and follow good security hygiene. It’s in their nature to be communicative and available.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by entee on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:43PM (#20823341)
It’s my understanding that Obama had a specially locked down device, not just the off the shelf blackberry/iPhone.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by ColanR on Thursday August 29, 2019 @12:49AM (#20826779)
That was after a while. From my recollection, the locked down blackberry was a compromise after he insisted on his prior insecure blackberry.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by frankzinger on Thursday August 29, 2019 @01:13AM (#20826861)
One would hope for a little continuity in the Presidential Office's security department. Why would they reset their security at the beginning of each administration, only to have to learn the same lessons the hard way again?
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by nostrademons on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:56PM (#20821599)
As I understand it he wasn't doing NATSEC-relevant work from the phone, but on Android spyware can turn on the microphone and camera remotely. During the Cold War our adversaries would've given anything to slip a bug into the Oval Office; now every hacker group who can pwn an Android phone has one.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by isostatic on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:35PM (#20822038)
> During the Cold War our adversaries would've given anything to slip a bug into the Oval Office

See

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by bubblethink on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:24PM (#20822522)
>but on Android spyware can turn on the microphone and camera remotely.

Seems like an unsubstantiated claim. Also, Android is a broad umbrella term where security varies widely across implementations and devices. Do you have any concrete information about reference Android devices (i.e., Pixels)

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by opencl on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:30PM (#20822590)
He was using a Galaxy S3 long past the time it stopped receiving security patches.

https://www.androidcentral.com/which-android-phone-does-dona...

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by okmokmz on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @03:55PM (#20823458)
>Seems like an unsubstantiated claim

It absolutely isn't. Evidence supporting his claim are easily found online, both in leaked documents as well as from other first and second hand sources

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by SiempreViernes on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:46PM (#20822154)
Uh, he is doing pretty reckless diplomacy on twitter, does that count as natural security work?
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by mandelbrotwurst on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:56PM (#20821604)
I'd be surprised if anyone in this thread has any way of knowing whether that's the case.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by mirimir on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:51PM (#20822207)
There might be, but they would never comment.
Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by cryptonector on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @05:53PM (#20824411)
My guess is that besides whatever the microphone, camera, and radios on that device can capture, there's no classified information on it. The microphone and camera can be dealt with by keeping the phone in a somewhat sound-proofed box, or just powered off.

I would hope there's no classified data access via WiFi at the WH, so perhaps that device's radios are of little importance. I'm not going to address the possibility of the radios being used to gather emanations, but keeping it on for very limited time periods is a mitigation.

(Yes, even so, the radios and microphone could perhaps be used for clever side channels for exfiltrating data during the times when it's powered on, but I'm sure there's lots of those side channels. This is partly why we have SCIFs, so again, not an issue.)

In any case, provided all he does with that device is tweet, provided when he's not tweeting it's powered off and locked away, provided the device is never ever taken to a SCIF, and provided there's no access to classified data over WiFi at the WH, I'd tolerate the President (whoever it might be) tweeting from a consumer-grade mobile device. That said, my preference would be for the President use a room for the purpose, and wired devices maintained for the purpose of tweeting.

The twitter account itself is of relatively low value.

Of course, perhaps he and his staff are quite careless with that device. Perhaps that device has been the source of many leaks! I thought NSA wouldn't let the President conduct the nation's business on an unsecure device, so I assume he only uses for tweeting, thus carelessness would be about the microphone, camera, and radios.

Re:The Myth of Consumer-Grade Security by fortran77 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:31PM (#20822604)
It was probably made in Korea, albeit with many Chinese parts.