News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by ajnin on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:30AM (#20810647)
Can someone shed light on the subsidy structure behing the current model, are shipments from China being subsidized by shipments from other countries or is there government money involved ?

In any case this kind of subsidy is not necessarily bad for developing countries, and it was probably instrumental in China's phenomenal economic growth, but it is now in the conquering superpower category, it's time it loses this advantage.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by afiedler on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:48AM (#20810915)
There's a fantastic Planet Money episode about the Universal Postal Union[1] and why this is a problem.

Basically, the UPU assumes that a country will send about the same amount of international mail that it receives. There may be an imbalance between any two countries, but in aggregate, it assumes that these imbalances will net out. Furthermore, the UPU sets rates based on the sending country's costs. Since China was classified as a developing country, it was very cheap for Chinese to send mail into the international mail stream. This was justified because China's last mile delivery for mail received from other countries is also very cheap.

However, with the huge US-China trade imbalance, these assumptions no longer hold. U.S. shippers were at a major disadvantage because of this.

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/01/634737852/epis...

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by iagovar on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @02:13PM (#20812760)
Does this also affect Europe? I remember that there was free or very inexpensive shipping from China to Spain.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by varjag on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @02:50PM (#20813188)
Yes it does, although AFAIK noone in Europe is quitting the postal union yet.

However here in Norway VAT is being introduced on all packages now, which is going to cut Aliexpress down quite a bit. Previously it was duty free below €35 combined value & postage.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by codebje on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:21PM (#20815024)
I pay Australian GST on AliExpress imports, but it doesn't make local outfits more viable. I buy hobby electronic components primarily, local suppliers are often one to two orders of magnitude more expensive, not just a few percent more.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by syedkarim on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @09:17PM (#20816033)
One or two orders of magnitude? Isn't that ten-times or a hundred-times more expensive? What product could possibly be marked up by 100x?
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by hnick on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:07PM (#20816511)
You can get 8 resistors for 55c retail from Jaycar or 100 for around the same price from AliExpress. So it's in the ballpark.

CR2032 batteries are a common item with an order of magnitude markup (20c each vs multiple dollars here).

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by magicalhippo on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @07:29AM (#20818708)
You assume it's the same product.

If you order electronic components from China, you're never quite sure what you get. You might get the stuff that failed QA testing at the factory, or second-hand stuff that's soldered off some old PCB. Or sometimes you get something else entirely... I ordered some LM35 temperature sensors in the TO-92 package, and got some cheap transistors instead. Case was TO-92, markings where as expected for LM35, but a quick test betrayed what was really inside.

In this case I expected them to be fake, based on the price, I just wanted to see what I got. But even if the part is appropriately priced you can't be sure.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by codebje on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @09:32AM (#20819566)
A bare atmega328p-pu is 10x the price. LEDs are about 15x. Resistors and caps are, as another poster said, huge, but you're possibly getting factory seconds from an already mediocre brand. I buy decoupling ceramics and 5% resistors from China for peanuts but stick to RS online for caps where I depend on characteristics or reliability.

China sells a lot of older stock via AliX, so newer chips are hard to find and might be near the same price, but older clonable classics like a 2n7k are dirt cheap and just as good.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by jdietrich on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:05PM (#20811150)
If someone in China sends a packet to the US via China Post, China Post are responsible for getting it to the US, while USPS are responsible for getting it from wherever it lands in the US to the recipient. An agreement made between all national postal services via the Universal Postal Union determines how much China Post have to pay the USPS for this final leg, a fee called the "terminal due".

The UPU agreement on terminal dues sets a sliding scale based on the sending country's level of economic development - less developed economies pay less, while more developed economies pay more. The logic behind this is fairly obvious, in helping less-developed economies to fully participate in the international mail system.

The problem for the USPS is that they are obliged to handle large volumes of mail originating in China, but the terminal dues for lightweight items are substantially below their cost of delivery. The handling of these items is effectively cross-subsidised by USPS customers.

The US is demanding that terminal dues should be set at a flat rate based on domestic postal costs, with the possibility of direct subsidies for less developed postal systems. This would partly (though not completely) reduce the competitive advantage for Chinese e-commerce sellers.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by michaelt on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:56AM (#20811039)
The explanation I've heard is:

The Universal Postal Union rules for how international mail is paid for were established at a time when most mail was letters, and most letters would need a reply by letter.

So on average, every international letter delivered in Country X behalf of the Country Y postal service would be balanced by one letter delivered in Country Y on behalf of the Country X postal service.

No exchange of money between countries needed, and if a country had daily/weekly mail delivery or dense/sparse population or expensive/cheap postal employees or rich/poor citizens or tax/subsidy on post or efficient/inefficient processing that was no other country's business, so long as the number of letters balanced.

In the modern age, the number of letters doesn't balance, because no-one places their AliExpress order by mail.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by kd0amg on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:42PM (#20811655)
Even if they did, there's often a substantial cost difference between delivering an order form and delivering the goods being ordered. I'm not sure I've ever ordered something as small and light as a letter.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by rjtavares on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:43AM (#20810840)
There's a good Planet Money episode about this: The Postal Illuminati (https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/01/634737852/epis...)
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by sangerSCB on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @03:14PM (#20813408)
This was the first thing I thought of when I read this, it's fascinating the way this system actually works (or doesn't work.)
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by ComputerGuru on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:45AM (#20810863)
I think the issue was in mistaking China for a developing country for so long. It’s different from western countries, but not undeveloped. Its size, population, culture, heritage, and history all play a role in how the ethnocentric West misinterpreted it.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by reaperducer on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:58AM (#20811070)
I'm not sure that "mistaking" is the right word.

For years the United States has protested the cheap UPU rates that China gets. But the UPU still classifies it as a "developing" nation.

China is the world's second-largest economy. It doesn't need or deserve the artificially cheap rates anymore. China shouldn't pay less to send packages overseas than countries in Africa.

By leaving the UPU, the United States can set correct prices.

It's one of those situations where China claims to be a developing nation when it suits its needs, and then claims to be a developed nation when it suits its needs.

If you're going to play in the big leagues, you have to play by big league rules.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by baybal2 on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @05:21PM (#20814499)
> China is the world's second-largest economy. It doesn't need or deserve the artificially cheap rates anymore. China shouldn't pay less to send packages overseas than countries in Africa.

China is a undeveloped nation. There are still parts of China where people live on under $40 a day.

Developed nations have a moral obligation to help undeveloped nations

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by reaperducer on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:10PM (#20814939)
There are parts of America where people live on $40 a day.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by DiogenesKynikos on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:58PM (#20811905)
When does China claim to be a developed nation?

Also, is there any reasonable metric by which China is not a developing economy?

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by reaperducer on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @01:02PM (#20811945)
is there any reasonable metric by which China is not a developing economy?

Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

Here's another: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by DiogenesKynikos on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @01:13PM (#20812093)
By those metrics, Bangladesh is more developed than Luxembourg.

That's not what I'd call "reasonable." You have to normalize by population.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by ComputerGuru on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @06:45PM (#20815198)
I think it’s a lot more complicated than that. You must divide by the population if wealth/development/whatever metric were uniformly distributed. But it’s a massive country with enormous diversity in statistics on all fronts. There are pockets far more developed than the average American town and even the most developed cities in other countries, and villages hundred of years “behind.” Debating whether or not to call it “developed” means missing out on a whole lot of nuance.

You can’t even compare cities to cities, since even an entity like Beijing is structured and defined so differently from how we define a city like NYC or Chicago.

This is why I stressed the ethnocentrism of it all. It’s a country that has developed tremendously but not at all in the same way that we have traditionally defined development in the western sense, and a lot of that comes from its size, its historic dynastic cultures and their political structures, and its population (count and local densities).

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by DiogenesKynikos on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @02:12AM (#20817284)
Then cite the GDP/capita of individual provinces or cities. Citing the GDP of the entire country is meaningless, though, given that it has 1.4 billion people. China is not more developed than Monaco, even though its GDP is thousands of times larger.

I haven't ever heard of the Chinese government claiming China to be a developed country - that was one of the original contentions above. I also think that by any reasonable metric, China is a developing country. There are pockets that are much more developed than others, but the country as a whole is still very far behind developed countries.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Der_Einzige on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @02:03PM (#20812651)
You should have posted GDP per capita, not just total GDP.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by beowulfey on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:47AM (#20810887)
It's not really a subsidy so much as an underpayment by the foreign goverments[1]. There is no tax money involved, and all the subsidizing comes from the increased revenue from raising domestic shipping costs.

The UPU has been around for decades, but it's only been since 2010 that the USPS has formalized the process with the "ePacket" shipping.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/12/...

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by defertoreptar on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @03:08PM (#20813343)
> There is no tax money involved, and all the subsidizing comes from the increased revenue from raising domestic shipping costs.

If the USPS loses money, which it has been every year recently, who pays the difference?

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by beowulfey on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @09:06PM (#20873038)
We do, the domestic customers of the USPS. But not via tax money; rather via increased local rates.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by ikeboy on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @01:44PM (#20812463)
UPU and epacket are different things, and epacket is currently profitable for the USPS.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by samirm on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:31PM (#20811523)
>but it is now in the conquering superpower category, it's time it loses this advantage

why?