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Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by gordaco on Sunday August 25, 2019 @06:46AM (#20792259)
This is horrible, but it's clear to me that this is just more than "a software error". Is being a student so hard in India that failing an exam causes people to commit suicide? In that case the problem is way bigger than "a software error".

Don't get me wrong, I understand that these deaths could have been prevented if the software errors hadn't happened; but the serious problem that should be addressed, in this case, is not the presence of these errors.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by DarkCrusader2 on Sunday August 25, 2019 @06:58AM (#20792282)
> Is being a student so hard in India that failing an exam causes people to commit suicide?

The problem here is definitely bigger than a software error. For students from small towns or poor family, education is their only shot at a better life for them and their family. You grow up in an environment where failure is simply not an option. I was once one of them. The cost of failing is incredibly high. Kids at this age should not be under such pressure.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by inapis on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:02AM (#20792481)
This. It is a massive cultural problem which the Indian society has perpetuated over the past couple of decades. This competition was so intense that kids scoring 94/95% were also not good enough. 98/100 or bust. Colleges in this country had cut-off lists at 99% for the first 4-5 lists. A vast majority of Indians who grew up and were schooled, till atleast as late as early 2010s, have faced this. I've seen kids as early as 5 taking extra classes after school to get ahead of others. I've heard of parents enquiring about "what" to do for their kid who will write a competitive exam 20 years later. Yes, they are panicking/preparing for something which is going to happen 20 years later.

Fortunately, winds are changing directions. Young Indians have come around to the prospect that engineering, medicine, law or civil services are not the only career options. Success of companies like Flipkart, Paytm have played a massive role in turning students towards entrepreneurship. People in major cities are open to pursuing unconventional careers on Youtube, Instagram, Blogs etc.

But there's still a massive way to go. I'd estimate it will take another generation or two to bring about this cultural change that marks are not everything.

If you need to grasp the intensity of the problem, be aware that multiple prime ministers have made multiple remarks over the years, telling the kids that the exams are not the end of their life[1]. Movies have been made to emphasize that skills/passion is way more important and valuable[2]. To see the after effects of such an education system, read The Made-In-India Manager[3]. Some positive effects are that you get really ambitious and competitive people out of such a system. On the negative side, you'd see that many Indian workers do not really have a hobby or life beyond work.

[1] https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/board-exam-is-not-...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Idiots

[3] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42611062-the-made-in-ind...

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by jfk13 on Sunday August 25, 2019 @02:44PM (#20794696)
> People in major cities are open to pursuing unconventional careers on Youtube, Instagram, Blogs etc.

Given the inane (at best) nature of most of what appears on youtube, instagram, blogs, etc., I'm not sure that's especially positive.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by readme3 on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:02AM (#20792730)
For "general quota" , cut off can be 100% to get application forms (https://www.quora.com/How-could-the-cut-off-at-Shri-Ram-Coll...)
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by dccoolgai on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:57PM (#20796923)
Not sure I'd say it's all bad. They could definitely take a more balanced view of things, but comparing the things that they glorify and cultivate (intelligence, academics) vs. The US (throwing balls around a field or looking/dressing attractive) it makes you think...
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by mariuolo on Sunday August 25, 2019 @11:58AM (#20793641)
Does this mean something like this happens every year even when grades are attributed properly?
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by qball on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:41AM (#20797689)
Yes.

Remember: the purpose, or at least the effect, of an education system like this is population control. In fact, general education isn't even the primary purpose of an education system like this.

Everyone knows that hinging futures on a single test means that success comes down to 3 things: how well a given person can take a test, how much money it's possible to funnel into tutors/the qualities of one's home support network, and luck. It's not about how well a given person will do in a knowledge-based position- by spending so much time teaching to a test the ability to think critically and collaborate with one's peers is severely curtailed, and selecting for good test-takers does not lead to selecting the best people for a particular job.

And the economy is too small to have enough high-skill jobs for the number of potential applicants. Contrast the US, where while applications to knowledge-based education are competitive, are certainly not matters of life and death- there's typically enough money, positions, and second chances to go around. That said, the situation was much better 30 years ago when low-skill jobs were still highly available, and the signalling war is starting to become more prevalent as the economy contracts.

By ensuring that people who will be dissatisfied by their position in society are removed from it (or to be precise, remove themselves from it with minimal effect), the system remains stable. If they do not do this, and refuse to settle for a life of poverty and abject waste of their innate abilities, they begin to act in ways that damage the stability of the society responsible for failing them (gangs, random violence, etc.).

Of course, the people who are killing themselves aren't typically the people who would do the former, so the society also selects for those who would do it harm. But that's fine, because when they act outside of the law society "becomes" justified in killing them; so in effect those who choose to kill themselves are just accepting their society's sentence of death in advance.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by anherome21003 on Sunday August 25, 2019 @07:32AM (#20792392)
Jeez they just need to learn to relax and talk to their counselor
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by blackoil on Sunday August 25, 2019 @07:49AM (#20792437)
What counselor? Schools in villages are lucky to have rooms that don't leak in rains. Though things have improved a lot over last couple of decades, dedicated counselor is in super expensive .01% schools.
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by blreng on Sunday August 25, 2019 @07:11AM (#20792324)
Limited resources and a huge population means that everyone has to compete very hard to grab those limited medical, engineering, or civil services' admissions that have long been considered to be a ticket to a better life.

That is changing now though. India now is much more bold than it was 20 years ago. More and more young people are taking the unconventional path and creating their own startups. But most of the country still has a long way to go to overcome this problem of high-pressure high-competition culture.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by gingabriska on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:24AM (#20792813)
People play population as a big thing, it's not in India's case.

More people means more demand.

The biggest problem is that those people do not have money which can't drive economy through demand.

And there is definitely something that can be done about it.

Population is large sure, but population density is similar to some middle populated European countries.

As a thought experiment if population of India halves over night, the situation will still not improve!

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by kranner on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:24AM (#20793119)
I don't understand why you think overpopulation is not a problem.

If the population of India halved over night, there would be half as many mouths to feed; there would be much less unemployment people could afford to charge higher wages for unskilled jobs (because there would be less competition to drive prices down.) How would that not be an improvement?

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by gingabriska on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:25AM (#20793127)
Let me ask you, why you think India is overpopulated?

>If the population of India halved over night, there would be half as many mouths to feed; there would be much less unemployment people could afford to charge higher wages for unskilled jobs (because there would be less competition to drive prices down.) How would that not be an improvement?

There will also be less demand for goods, ask those countries which have negative population replacement rate. Where will the demand come from if population halved that means half as much demand for your wheat, rice, and all other necessities.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by kranner on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:31AM (#20793177)
> Where will the demand come from if population halved that means half as much demand for your wheat, rice, and all other necessities?

How does it matter if there is still enough demand for these goods to be sold out? Remember prices are controlled by the government for basic necessities such as these.

> Let me ask you, why you think India is overpopulated?

How is this relevant to overpopulation being or not being a problem?

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by gingabriska on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:33AM (#20793194)
>How is this relevant to overpopulation being or not being a problem?

Looking at population density of India, I don't think it's population issue. You mentioned overpopulation in your response to India's problem. I assure you, India can grow as rich as US even at 3 billion population.

India has many problems but population at present in not one of those, maybe it will become a problem if population growth is kept uncheck. But don't blame slow development in past and present to population.

Population being accumulated in few cities is a problem of government and their failure to understand how market works and how they can better it.

None of the political party in India have any viable development plan.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by kranner on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:36AM (#20793206)
You should look at the population density of Indian cities, not the mean population density all across India. Metros like Mumbai and Kolkata are insanely densely populated. When all the good jobs are in cities like these, overpopulation does become a limiting factor.
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by kranner on Sunday August 25, 2019 @11:33AM (#20793503)
You keep changing your comments after I've replied to them. Please mark any edits or addenda separately once someone has replied to that comment.
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by mayankkaizen on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:43AM (#20792916)
Education is of paramount importance in India. The competition is fierce. I don't have data but you can frequently read in newspapers about so many teens committing suicide over failures to clear an exam or because of intense pressure to perform.

These days so many kids start preparing for IIT entrance exams at least 2 years in advance. Even though there are may be 10,000+ engineering colleges in India, only around 30 are just good enough. I once read a Quora post in which a mother asked for guidance as to how she should prepere her 6 year old kid for IIT!

Getting admission in medical colleges is even worse. There are even fewer colleges and I've heard that people pay very very large sum as donation to get lateral entry in medical colleges.

Education in political science/art is considered waste of time and money. Degree in commerce (if from non premier colleges) is for mediocre jobs.

The situation is far worse than I can describe here. Far more worse.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by mayanksatnalika on Sunday August 25, 2019 @07:05AM (#20792305)
Yeah, the headline is kinda clickbait. The state of education here isn't the best and there is a huge scope for improvements, but also with given volumes unfortunately it's the only system which works and very high competition becomes inevitable. Read this for an insight on why the system is how it is. https://www.quora.com/What-is-wrong-with-the-Indian-educatio...
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by sbmthakur on Sunday August 25, 2019 @06:51AM (#20792271)
Yes, that's the issue at the core. Indian students are under a lot of pressure due to intense competition and expectations of parents (and other relatives). Attributing these deaths to an "error" trivializes a complex problem.
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by k__ on Sunday August 25, 2019 @07:08AM (#20792312)
Yes, I have the feeling that people from India are very work/success-oriented.

Here in Germany it's the same, but somehow we manage a bit better to don't over burden our children.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by sersi on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:01AM (#20792474)
Germany isn't the same at all, there are multiple paths for kids to have a decent life. A kid who is not admitted to a Gymnasium and goes to a Realschule can still hope to get an apprenticeship and have a decent life.

In india, because of the poverty, for a lot of kids getting good results is their one ticket to a good life. You just can't compare the pressure in a first world country to the pressure of a third world country.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by k__ on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:59AM (#20792718)
Good point.

That would explain why people from Idia always seem a bit more focuses and harsh about work, for the there has always been much on the line. In Germany we are also work focused, but overall a bit more chill, at least in my experience...

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by sumedh on Sunday August 25, 2019 @07:17AM (#20792339)
You cannot compare India with Germany, Germany is a welfare state, in India if you cannot get a good job then the next question you have to ask is will there be food on the table tomorrow.
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by k__ on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:04AM (#20792738)
You're right.

It's hard to fathom such countries.

On the one hand I see very industrious and smart people from countries like India and Nigeria online, on the other hand people are starving in those countries.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by n_ary on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:32AM (#20793182)
> Is being a student so hard in India that failing an exam causes people to commit suicide?

It actually is & not limited to India but all neighboring countries. Most parents make it very clear from early childhood that if a child doesn't have "best grades", they are worthless. Some children are actually beaten at home for not getting top grade in poor families or given other traumatizing treatments so they learn to avoid failures/shame in the future(the result of which you see in this news). There is actually no concept of children psychology, so traumatizing children is a normal activity.

The issue stems from the fact that, number of educated people in that side of the continent is much higher than number of "good jobs"(doctor,engineer,scientist,government employee etc.) available, so everyone competes for that small piece of the pie. Also, lots all government funded educational institutes are off-limits to a student if they are not top of their class to which alternative paths are very expensive(private college/universities) which can't be afforded by general families, so it is do or die situation overall.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by nobrains on Sunday August 25, 2019 @08:26AM (#20792572)
It's a problem of numbers. Population. Competition.

From the article: Vodnali Shivani, 16, woke up at the crack of dawn every morning to study. She wanted to be an engineer and she would often say to her father: "Wait for five years and our lives will change."

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by DjangoR on Monday August 26, 2019 @01:46AM (#20797710)
Was just about to say the same thing. They should be blaming a culture that would create such a stressful environment where kids would commit suicide for failing a test.
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by gingabriska on Sunday August 25, 2019 @07:07AM (#20792311)
>Is being a student so hard in India that failing an exam causes people to commit suicide?

Yes because there are limited opportunities.

Instead of spending money in creating more opportunities, government likes to spend money in forcing students to compete against each other for limited opportunities and this creates a dynamic where you neither trust others and are always eager to throw others under the bus including yourself.

Surprisingly, the parents of these students cheer these competition inducing practises to prove how their kid is better than other kids.

Instead India will benefit from opening centers where anyone can go and learn whatever skill they want to learn.

Anyone should be able to learn how to build a bridge then have his skills and knowledge tested when he actually wants to build bridge for other people.

But in India first you compete for learning how make bridge, then you compete for job then you compete to stay in job.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by b_tterc_p on Sunday August 25, 2019 @09:35AM (#20792872)
I don’t understand how these ideas can mix. If schools are super competitive and the good economic opportunities go to only the top x%, where x is smallish, then most people do not get x. I can’t see it being suicidally bad if this the most common outcome.

What do people do if they don’t succeed?

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by gingabriska on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:14AM (#20793074)
>I can’t see it being suicidally bad if this the most common outcome

Other opportunities do exist but mostly it means being dependent on your parents (to get more education) and they are not going to be very nice and always going to call you out how you have failed them. Sometimes, you might even have PhD from lowly ranked institution and you don't get job. There are simply so many institutes offering degrees where you pay per semester $5000 (obvious way to find it through loans from family and friends or bank loan) and might end up with a degree getting you either no job or stuck for years in $400 job.

If you are well off, you may become part of your Dad's business in which case it's not a big deal or your dad may use his contacts to install you in some company.

But if you've no connections, no money and you bid everything on this education, you might be left win nothing at the end.

Internal demand is very less in India so even if you try to do something else, like small time manufacturing or owning a shop (it's bloody battle). Often the ones who have actual shops are sort of mafia types who won't bat an eye to burn your shop or murder you outright this comes after you manage to convince anyone about giving you money for bootstrapping (which is also very rare)

If you are small time business owner in India, either you've very good connections or you use muscle force to stay in business and demand for whatever you produce or sell might simply not be there.

These are my observation as a foreigner in India.

Maybe in South India it's different but i am in North India.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by kranner on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:27AM (#20793146)
> Often the ones who have actual shops are sort of mafia types who won't bat an eye to burn your shop or murder you outright

This is a bit of fanciful exaggeration. There are a lot of small shopkeepers in India. There is no reason to believe they've been stabbing and shooting their competition.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by gingabriska on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:31AM (#20793172)
>There are a lot of small shopkeepers in India. There is no reason to believe they've been stabbing and shooting their competition

Have you ever owned a non IT business? I am in India and my friends who have successful shops received death threats many times. One even sold his hotel because his son was getting kidnapped all time.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by kranner on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:33AM (#20793196)
> One even sold his hotel

When I say 'small shopkeepers', I don't mean people who are rich enough to own hotels. I mean mom and pop grocery shops or the neighbourhood tea stall.

Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by gingabriska on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:47AM (#20793282)
Sure, other small shop owners have to pay bribe to food inspector in North India.
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by kranner on Sunday August 25, 2019 @10:51AM (#20793306)
Yes, that's true. There's all kinds of extortion by corrupt cops and government officers. But these shopkeepers are by and large not mafiosi who have to muscle out the competition.
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by gingabriska on Sunday August 25, 2019 @11:17AM (#20793426)
My neighbor is part of Sand Mafia and my last cable guy got his throat sliced by competitor who now owns the whole local cable network.
Re:India school-leaving exam: A controversy that cost 23 lives by kranner on Sunday August 25, 2019 @11:35AM (#20793518)
I wouldn't be surprised if the local cable network is ultimately owned by one of the local politicians. That seems to be the norm throughout India.

But these are not the kind of small businesses I was talking about.