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Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by johannes1234321 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:16PM (#20749400)
Picking a random point: DRM is malware. It is extra software with the only purpose to limit what I can do.

Of course there is no alternative as long as consumers accept it. And consumers don't care since it all seems to work.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by holy_city on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:34PM (#20750371)
Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable. DRM is the solution. That's not malware, it's part of the threat/loss prevention model for certain kinds of data.

There are plenty of issues with DRM from a practical and philosophical level. But I think calling it malware is disingenuous. Alice doesn't cede her rights over her data by transmitting it to Bob, and DRM is how Alice protects the data when Bob is a malicious actor. If Bob wants to gain more privileges over all his data, he doesn't need to accept communication from Alice.

That said, buggy DRM can be atrocious and cost more money than it saves. I know plenty of folks who pirate software they own because it's easier than an legal install. But that's a UX problem, not a DRM problem.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by johannes1234321 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:54PM (#20751286)
By sending it me you have to copy it, either onto a medium or network, I then have to copy it (from some medium/network at least into main memory and then copy either into video or audio memory which then do magic to highlight pixels or create audio waves)

The copy is essence of what a computer does. A computer can essentially only do some math and copying.

If you ask me to install some DRM software (or maybe even some hardware containing DRM stuff as in HDMI) you are asking me to run additional complex software where the only purpose is to restrict the functionality of my computer.

I do that, since I like some movies and other things I get this way. However the software serves no purpose to me as the user. It is there to do Digital Restriction Management.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by johannes1234321 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:04PM (#20751439)
When Apple dropped DRM from their music downloads it was a great day. Suddenly one could download music for a competitive price legally from the internet and use in all the ways. Putting it on my mp3 player or my media server and create a backup, which I can trust to be usable even a few years. If a new audio standard comes by I even can re-encode and keep it.

Meanwhile however we have Spotify and are back in the walled garden.

Movie industry unfortunately went directly from physical media (with stupid DRM restrictions - my favorite one is that on a "legal" DVD player I am forced to watch a short sequence on how bad pirates are, on my "illegal" DRM free player I can skip that part) to streaming. Making sure I don't "own" a thing and making sure my computer runs software limiting what I can do with my computer.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by judge2020 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:13PM (#20752221)
In the legal sense, buying from iTunes is actually "buying", while you do just rent access (similar to a Gym membership) when you sign up for Apple Music or Spotify. I don't blame them for using DRM for music when the user needs a perpetual license to continue listening to it.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by holy_city on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:00PM (#20752083)
Maybe "non-redistributable" instead of "non-copyable."

I don't disagree with your assessment, except I'd say DRM doesn't exist to restrict the machine - the goal is to restrict the user. Which is necessary, when users aren't trustworthy.

But I'd disagree that DRM doesn't serve you a purpose. It serves the purpose of establishing trust and enforcing conditional exchanges of information. The alternative, like you imply, is no communication, or communication through a different medium that doesn't involve your hardware at all.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by spookthesunset on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:12PM (#20751538)
These kinds of reductionist arguments don't hold much water in the real world. Using arguments like this you can justify ransomware--after all ransomware is just CPU instructions running on a computer. That is what computers do is run instructions. Therefore, it is totally okay if the instructions happen to encrypt the entire contents of a disk and prevent the user from accessing it until they pay money.

Here in meatspace, we have this notion of ownership and property rights. DRM is a mechanism to protect those rights. They may not be perfect, and they might not always make much business sense but that is their intent.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by johannes1234321 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:20PM (#20751631)
The ransomware doesn't do what I as owner of the computer want and nothing which serves me a purpose. The comparison doesn't work.

If you look for a comparison: DRM is like a book publisher printing books on special paper which prevents copying and which can only be read in a specific angle so I can't easily take notes containing quotes from the book. All to protect those rights. (Edit: actually that example is missing a piece - you need special reading glasses to be able to read it, that's what DRM is doing on my machine)

And yes - Napster was an issue for the music industry. Suddenly their content was there for free and easily accessible. But then there was Apple, giving music away DRM-free with even better usability and for an acceptable fee.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by TeMPOraL on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:45PM (#20752537)
> Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable. DRM is the solution. That's not malware, it's part of the threat/loss prevention model for certain kinds of data.

That's a nice way of phrasing it from the business point of view. From the customer point of view, it's degrading the product and artificially limiting the ways one can interact with it. It goes against the fundamental principle of general-purpose computing: as a computer owner, I get to tell what the computer can and cannot do with the data it has.

DRM in its most general form exists as a way to (try to) make some data follow a different set of rules than the rules of the medium. It's an attempt of making bits have colour[0]. Since bits don't, and can't, have colour, you have to simulate this by changing the rules of the universe in which those bits are processed. It's practically impossible to do correctly, hence the product degradation that always accompanies DRM schemes.

Adding insult to injury, DRM is usually employed to force a recurring revenue stream in a context where it fundamentally doesn't make sense.

--

[0] - https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by saagarjha on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:18PM (#20750868)
> Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable.

Barring quantum technology, I don't think this is possible.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by ben_w on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:41PM (#20751873)
Even with quantum technology, there is such a thing as a “good enough” copy — my phone can record 4k/60fps, and while it would be a bit fiddly to set it up right to copy a video by filming a display, it can be done.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by ssully on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:32PM (#20749594)
I also have my gripes with DRM, but what you defined is 100% not malware, and also an insincere definition of DRM.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by Dylan16807 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:28PM (#20750299)
> also an insincere definition of DRM

I have no idea what you mean by that. I really need you to elaborate, because it sounds like a perfect description of DRM. It's there to stop you from playing/copying files, and nothing else.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by lazyasciiart on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:09PM (#20750773)
The purpose is to extend what I as the producer of the files can do, giving me the ability to send you a file and still control your usage.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by nybble41 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:50PM (#20751971)
> ...giving me the ability to send you a file and still control your usage.

This is exactly why DRM is malware. It's not your device. You don't get to say what it may or may not do. That's for the device's owner to decide.

malware: Software that is specifically designed to disrupt, damage, or gain unauthorized access to a computer system. <https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/malware>

Your explicit intention is to disrupt the operation of the computer running the DRM software. This disruption is not authorized by the owner of the device. Ergo: malware.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by lazyasciiart on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @12:21AM (#20754541)
Without DRM, I won't send you the file. If I don't send you the file, you can't play it at all. So DRM has increased what you can do.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by nybble41 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @12:56PM (#20759036)
> Without DRM, I won't send you the file.

If you're going to claim control over my computer in the process, I would prefer that you not send me the file. If the price is accepting DRM then it would be better for everyone if the file never existed.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by lazyasciiart on Thursday August 22, 2019 @12:17AM (#20764584)
I can still not send you the file if I have DRM. Now you are keeping control of your computer by not using any files with DRM, and arguing that nobody else should be given those options.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by nybble41 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @04:32PM (#20772099)
Look, if you want to keep the file to yourself unless I agree to run your DRM code on my PC, that's your choice (and mine). Just like rootkits are generally considered malware but it's not an issue if the owner of the PC chooses to install one. However, to be clear, the price is not just me accepting DRM in order to get the file from you but rather everyone being saddled with owner-hostile (and generally non-removable) code shipped with their computers by default and a legal system which grants special privileges and protections to purveyors of DRM, without which the technical measures would be far less effective.

I'm not complaining that you won't give me the file unless I run your DRM code. I'm complaining that your insistence on DRM is creating negative externalities for me and others even if we don't want the file.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by Dylan16807 on Thursday August 22, 2019 @12:42AM (#20764696)
There are lots of freedoms you can't contract away. It's not particularly odd to view DRM with that same lens.

And as a practical matter, while many services require DRM when it's easy to do so, in a world without DRM almost none would shut down.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by Dylan16807 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:48PM (#20752560)
Extends what you can do, by letting you control (limit) my usage.

So instead of "It is extra software with the only purpose to limit what I can do." we have "It is extra software with the only purpose to limit what I can do, on the bidding of someone else."

That's basically the same definition. The "someone else" part was already implied by the first half, obviously some party wants it or there would be no conflict. So we've reached a clearer and more explicit definition, but we've also shown that the original definition is not insincere at all!

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by ssully on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:59PM (#20752072)
This is what I could call are a sincere definition.

I understand why someone could view this as limiting, but saying DRM is malware and it's only purpose is to limit you is intentionally ignoring other information about DRM to make it sound even worse then it is.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by kube-system on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:08PM (#20751489)
Given that 'malware' is short for 'malicious software', one might make a semantic argument that DRM is actually anti-malware, as it prevents other software from operating maliciously. Copyright infringement is undoubtedly a malicious act under the law in most places.

Any kind of security, authentication, or encryption software ever written was done so to "limit what you can do", so I don't think that is enough to constitute maliciousness.

That being said, many DRM software implementations have been known to go beyond just protecting the rights of the content creators, and that's a different story.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by nybble41 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:46PM (#20751928)
> Copyright infringement is undoubtedly a malicious act...

You're seriously trying to argue that people who commit copyright infringement do so maliciously, i.e. with the intent of harming the copyright holder? That seems... novel. And not very plausible. If true, however, it would be much more effective to ignore the work altogether, thus denying the copyright holder both direct income and free publicity.

> Any kind of security, authentication, or encryption software ever written was done so to "limit what you can do", so I don't think that is enough to constitute maliciousness.

The point of security, authentication, and encryption software is to protect the interests of the owner of the device. Defending yourself from malicious attacks by others is not an act of malice. DRM is malicious because it perverts the owner's computing resources to thwart the owner's interests and subverts their control over their own device.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by ghettoimp on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:31PM (#20752420)
> You're seriously trying to argue that people who commit copyright infringement do so maliciously, i.e. with the intent of harming the copyright holder? That seems... novel. And not very plausible. If true, however, it would be much more effective to ignore the work altogether, thus denying the copyright holder both direct income and free publicity.

Your incredulity seems intellectually dishonest.

If not malicious, how would you describe enjoying a {book, movie, song, program, ...} that someone has offered for sale without paying for it?

Granted, it's not as clear cut as theft. You aren't depriving anyone of an item that they own.

Granted, the author may in some cases benefit indirectly from copyright infringement, e.g., when you go tell your more honest friends about it, and they go off and buy a copy for themselves.

But in a world where the vast majority of the folks who create these kinds of works need to get paid, and the way they get paid is by selling copies, consuming their work without paying for it seems really fundamentally unfair to them.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by nybble41 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @01:15PM (#20759190)
> If not malicious, how would you describe enjoying a {book, movie, song, program, ...} that someone has offered for sale without paying for it?

The natural state of the world? There is no natural right to control the distribution of things that you publish. Copyright is an artificial privilege created for the sake of social engineering.

If one thing is certain it's the fact that there is no actual malice in the act, so calling it "malicious" is intellectually dishonest. Even labeling it as freeloading would be incorrect since there is no cost ("load") imposed on anyone else. It makes zero difference to the copyright holder's material wellbeing whether you obtain an unauthorized copy or just ignore the work altogether. It's understandable that people would like to be paid for nothing more than giving permission for something that doesn't actually affect them at all, but there's no just basis for it.

Obviously people should get paid for the labor involved in creating new works, to the extent that there is a demand for them. That does not in any sense imply that they should be able to control the distribution of works which have already been created and published. There are plenty of other models (including patronage, crowdsourcing, bounties, and work for hire) which would permit creators of works to get paid fairly without control over distribution. Copyright in general and DRM in particular are among the worst choices, not only because they are unjust but also because they impose massive negative externalities on the rest of society for relatively little gain.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by spookthesunset on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:19PM (#20752291)
> subverts their control over their own device

The owner owns their device, yes but they don't always own the data on the device. DRM, for all its faults, is an attempt to reconcile to reconcile the two conflicting requirements.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by nybble41 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @06:34PM (#20752904)
The idea of "owning" data is incoherent, which readily explains the issues with DRM. It is an attempt to apply rules suited only for scarce property to non-scarce information.

Owning a resource means that you get to decide how the resource is consumed, i.e. used up. This is exclusive only to the extent that scarce resources cannot be put to two conflicting uses simultaneously, so active use by anyone else would prevent the owner from consuming the resource as they choose. Data, however, is not scarce; it can never be used up. There is no possible conflict between the "owner" and any other user, which makes the claim of ownership meaningless. No matter what anyone else might do with the data, the "owner" still has it and can use it however they wish.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by kube-system on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @01:35AM (#20754787)
The vast majority of places in the world recognize the right for a creator to exclusively reproduce their creative works for a period of time so that they may enjoy profit from their creativity.

That may be semantically different than “ownership”, but is otherwise functionally irrelevant in the context of this conversation.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by nybble41 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @01:19PM (#20759214)
Thank you for providing a perfect illustration of the is/ought fallacy. You are saying that copyright laws exist. I am saying that they should not exist because they are unjust and logically incoherent. These points are not in conflict. The fact that copyright is semantically different from ownership is the entire point. Ownership and exclusive control over physical property have a just and rational basis in scarcity. Copyright does not.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by kube-system on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @03:16PM (#20760573)
The concept of copyright absolutely does have a rational basis in scarcity. Creative works take a substantial investment of time and/or money to create.

The idea that creators shouldn't have the right to control their works is wildly radical -- even more than the FSF's view. Even the concept of copyleft relies on the right of the creator to impose licensing on their creative works. If copyrights didn't exist, licenses that require source to be shared, like GPL, couldn't exist.

You're well entitled to your opinion, but I'm glad the world doesn't work that way, because things like the restrictive clauses in GPL have been very good for the world.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by nybble41 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @04:02PM (#20761095)
> Creative works take a substantial investment of time and/or money to create.

That's the labor which is scarce. Not copies of the copyrighted work. I already said people who create things should be paid for that labor—or more to the point, have to be paid if you want them to continue to create things. That does not imply that they deserve to control what others do with the work after it's been produced and published. That was just an expedient method chosen to encourage "the sciences" (though in practice it's been applied more to entertainment). There are better ways.

> If copyrights didn't exist, licenses that require source to be shared, like GPL, couldn't exist.

The GPL was created as a counterbalance to copyright. In a world without copyright there never would have been any need for it. Moreover, permissive licenses like MIT and BSD have had their share of success even without a requirement to share source code for modifications.

> The idea that creators shouldn't have the right to control their works is wildly radical -- even more than the FSF's view.

It's not really all that radical. Copyright itself is a relatively recent invention and was originally designed as a means of censorship and protectionism for publishers. Before that there was no practical means for an author to control distribution of their work, or any expectation that they should be able to do so. The manual duplication of notable works was routine, and you wouldn't find those scribes begging the author's permission.

In more modern terms, the popularity of file sharing certainly suggests that a very large fraction of the population doesn't act like they believe authors should be able to control the distribution of their works once they're published. Copyright is mainly popular among those who directly benefit from it, much like any other subsidy.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by kube-system on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @05:58PM (#20762296)
> I already said people who create things should be paid for that labor—or more to the point, have to be paid if you want them to continue to create things.

> There are better ways.

Like what, paying for labor instead of the work itself? That may work well (and already does) for more commoditized/custom-purpose/one-time-use creative works, but how do we apply something like that to something like recorded-media entertainment? Prepay for Taylor Swift's next album on Kickstarter?

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by nybble41 on Wednesday August 21, 2019 @07:24PM (#20763007)
> Like what, paying for labor instead of the work itself?

Yes, exactly. There is no reason why a Kickstarter or Patreon model wouldn't work for recorded-media entertainment. Those approaches have already been used for things which are much more labor-intensive than music albums.

Artists with an established brand and fan following have some additional options, such as limited-edition merchandise or signed prints. Scarce physical goods that can't just be duplicated because their value is derived from their providence.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by Drew_ on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @03:43PM (#20751131)
TIL authorization is malware apparently.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by johannes1234321 on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:06PM (#20751470)
Software running on my computer, not letting me things do I want to do is malware. Yes.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by spookthesunset on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @04:13PM (#20751552)
You own your computer, yes. But you don't always own the data on it. Ownership of something is a legal and social construct, not a technical one.

PS: I think most DRM works against the businesses that attempt to implement it. But it isn't malware. It is a data protection layer.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by new_realist on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:24PM (#20749509)
If DRM allows you to consume content you would not otherwise have access to, it is a feature. What does it limit you from doing, in particular? Running custom software on your device? That’s a funny definition of malware.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by hyperhopper on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @01:53PM (#20749820)
DRM doesn't allow you to consume content. There is nothing technical about DRM that helps deliver content to me.

I think you may be referring to businesses making an anti-user decision to withhold content, and mistaking exceptions to that to be things useful to a user.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:07PM (#20750010)
I don't see how it's an anti-user decision. Whether it's bits over the network or physical stuff, why should they have to send me their product if they don't want to?
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by TeMPOraL on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:20PM (#20750181)
DRM isn't about them not sending the product - it's about them sending the product and then hijacking the computer I own to prevent me from using the product the way I like.

DRM schemes are anti-user decisions in the sense that users are presented with a choice of either allowing companies to hijack their machines to enforce a subpar experience, or walking away.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by spookthesunset on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:24PM (#20752344)
The product is the media content. Our society and legal framework says you don't own that content. You might own your device, but you don't own that bit of data stored on it. Said data owner requires you to consume the data in certain ways. How do you reconcile the two conflicting requirements? One way is to invent crazy DRM schemes.

Of course, I'd argue most DRM pushes normal people to piracy because the restrictions usually suck. Had they just distributed the content in a more unrestricted way, they'd do more business. But that is a business problem, not a technical one.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by TeMPOraL on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:54PM (#20752613)
> How do you reconcile the two conflicting requirements? One way is to invent crazy DRM schemes.

Another way is to not do it. The law does not require you to implement crazy DRM schemes, it requires me to not distribute copyrighted work to which I don't own the copyright.

The law doesn't force companies to implement DRM. It's a choice, and as a choice, it can be considered malicious action by customers.

Grocery stores doesn't hire large amount of security people so that every customer would have a security person assigned to them that follows them around and ensures they don't steal anything. They could do it, I don't think any law anywhere prevents them from doing that. But the first one to try it would quickly lose all its customers. If such a practice happened to get ultimately established (e.g. normalized by stores in non-commodity position), I suspect the meatspace equivalent of FSF would be ranting about it too.

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by ahupp on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:20PM (#20750192)
Payments are also not something technical that helps deliver content to you, yet without them you'd have no content to consume. Same with DRM.
Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by musicale on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @02:25PM (#20750261)
> What does it (DRM) limit you from doing, in particular?

How about:

- Using the fast forward function in media playback software to skip over advertisements.

- Ripping DVD and Blu-Ray movies for use with a media server.

- Playing movies and games from other countries (region locking.)

- Recording or streaming console gameplay (e.g. HDCP on PS3, disabling the share function in certain PS4 games.)

- Running certain software, even some single-player games, if you are not connected to the internet ("always-on DRM.")

Re:Google's software mistreats or harms the user by spookthesunset on Tuesday August 20, 2019 @05:25PM (#20752356)
Don't use that content if you don't like the restrictions it imposes on you.

DRM sucks, but you don't have to use it.