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Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by jcranmer on Friday August 16, 2019 @01:24PM (#20717346)
Nvidia's coup was in getting people to switch to a different programming model and rewrite their code to achieve the necessary performance. Intel, especially in upper management, is stuffed with people who assumed that was impossible. And faced with new competition from GPUs, the only acceptable response to management was the many-x86, "you don't have to rewrite your code to get performance" approach which didn't actually work out.

It's not that Intel doesn't have people that recognize the issues, but rather the people who do have that foresight are drowned out by people who don't realize the game has changed. Intel, to be fair, does have the best autovectorizer--but designing vector code from scratch in a purpose-built vector language is still going to produce better results, as shown when ispc beat the vectorizer.

But Nvidia can also get drunk on its kool-aid, just as Intel has been. Nvidia's marketing would have you believe that switching to GPUs magically makes you gain performance, but if your code isn't really amenable to a vector programming style, then GPUs aren't going to speed your code up, and the shift from CPU-based supercomputers to GPU-based supercomputers are going to leave you happy. There's still room for third-way architectures that is anyone's game.

Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by hos234 on Friday August 16, 2019 @04:12PM (#20719245)
People are all full of foresight until their foresight doesn't work. Which is most of the time when working at the cutting edge of Tech. That's when companies crash and burn. Intel has not, despite missing the boat on big calls almost 10 to 15 times now. What does that say about Intel? People think missing the call is a sign of bad management.

Bad management is when your company evaporates because you make one bad call.

Management gets points for surviving and then fighting back despite being wrong. And when you look at Intel's history, there are few companies on the planet who have managed to do that multiple times. They have a good mix of people who know what they are doing technically AND people who do whatever it takes to keep the company from sinking when those bad technical calls happen.

If Nvidia survives whatever their next bad call maybe expect them to start looking more and more like Intel.

Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by FighterMafia on Friday August 16, 2019 @06:53PM (#20720504)
"Bad management is when your company evaporates because you make one bad call."

That's a pretty low bar!

Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by fragmede on Saturday August 17, 2019 @11:33AM (#20724526)
Intel was founded in '68. They've been around since the inception of the integrated circuit. Their war chest of patents and dollars and assets/resources aka foundries, is helpful in soaking up damage from bad calls in a way that no one else can match.

AMD could never made the same gamble as Intel did for Itanium. There's a long technical argument as to whether the world is better off in a technical CPU design sense because of that, but I disagree that it's necessarily good management of Intel that's allowed it to recover from disaster.

The best management can play the hand they're dealt perfectly and still lose. However bad management can play the best hand poorly and still win.

Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by varelse on Friday August 16, 2019 @02:26PM (#20718043)
If you don't have a fundamentally serial workload (and usually either you don't or you have a lot of them you can parallelize across tasks) and you are willing to write bespoke CUDA code for that workload, Nvidia is telling the truth.

CUDA's sweet spot lies between embarrassingly parallel (for which ASICs and FPGAs rule the world because these are generally pure compute with low memory bandwidth overhead) and serial (for which CPUs are still best), a place I call "annoyingly parallel." There are a lot of workloads in this space in my experience.

But if you don't satisfy both of the aforementioned requirements and/or you insist on doing this all from someone else's code interfaced through a weak-typed garbage collected global interpreter locked language, your mileage will vary greatly cough deep learning frameworks cough.

Finally, it doesn't matter who's doing it, marchitecturing(tm) drives me nuts too.

Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by hyperpallium on Friday August 16, 2019 @09:40PM (#20721385)
They're not lying. To parallelize, you have to code in a different style - though it doesn't have to be CUDA. However, it's easier to enforce the syle in a parallel-specific language, and it can help to support idioms.

Controlling the language certainly helps Nvidia's economic moat.

Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by mjevans on Friday August 16, 2019 @02:21PM (#20717994)
Intel also got burned by Itanium; though maybe if it had been a many-core design as well the payoff would have been worth it. (Looking (about a generation later, Itanium first released in 2001 and cell development started then) at the Cell processor the PS3 used, the idea was probably around at the time and didn't seem to pay off very well their either...)

Arguably one of the things that Nvidia really got right was learning from those past failures at other companies and making it easier for developers to utilize the platform starting from a standpoint that they were familiar with and helpfully nudging them towards what would run fast in parallel.

Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by dwaite on Friday August 16, 2019 @05:11PM (#20719752)
> Intel, especially in upper management, is stuffed with people who assumed that was impossible. And faced with new competition from GPUs, the only acceptable response to management was the many-x86, "you don't have to rewrite your code to get performance" approach which didn't actually work out.

I think the big disconnect is thinking they had to make people rewrite code. CUDA often targets entirely new codebases, and in some cases new types applications.

The "rewriting of code" is mostly for things like AV processing and codecs where there was such a sellable benefit in performance it would have been insane for them not to invest the effort.

Intel was doubly hindered here, because they wanted everything to use x86. Intel had trade secret and patent protections from competitors, and a critical mass of marketshare.

Parallel programming was something that had to fit into that "x86 for everything" mindset rather than being a separate/competing technology to x86. The company that pushed winmodems and software sound cards wasn't going to be able to lead the disruption there.

Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by blu42 on Friday August 16, 2019 @03:42PM (#20718935)
Intel's SIMD autovectorizer against NV's SIMT was like bringing a sword to a machine-gun war. The fact Intel's own ispc beat that too should have shown them there was an entirely different class of weaponry they should've been developing. Not only didn't they respond adequately, they doubled down on xeon phi.. That's future textbook material right there.

Only now, more than a decade later they realize their mistake and try to correct the juggernaut's course. Such glacial mistakes in this industry can cast death blows to even the largest entities.

Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by semi-extrinsic on Friday August 16, 2019 @04:14PM (#20719256)
My pet conspiracy theory is that Intel pushed Xeon Phi so hard in order to sell an expensive but mostly useless HPC system to China. And now they got burnt and are rolling their own tech.
Re:Nvidia CEO says Google is the only customer building its ... by ksec on Friday August 16, 2019 @04:05PM (#20719176)
>but rather the people who do have that foresight are drowned out by people who don't realize the game has changed.

They drowned out Pat Gelsinger late 00s, then Justin Rattner and many others Retired in early 10s, the rest is history.