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Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by opportune on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @04:49PM (#20690081)
I understand why you would want to set interest rates negative if your central bank is going to buy up all that debt, but as an individual or institutional investor why would you ever want to hold something with negative interest instead of cash?

Why is there even a market for a bond with negative interest rates at all, since compared to a $X bond with negative interest, $X in currency seemingly carries less risk, more liquidity, and a higher rate of return?

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by darawk on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:24PM (#20690410)
When you deposit your money at the bank, the bank pays you an interest rate. Normally that rate is positive. They pay you that interest rate because they are investing your money somewhere (often in mortgages, which pay them an interest rate).

However, sometimes they have more money than their investment prospects can handle. Normally under those circumstances, they would buy treasuries from the federal reserve, which return the "risk-free rate". They always want to invest their money in things that return more than the risk-free rate, but sometimes they can't find enough stuff to invest in that they think will have a better return. In those cases, they're forced to buy treasuries.

Now, if the risk-free rate is negative, you might reasonably ask: Why doesn't the bank just keep cash? And the answer to that is that they're legally prevented from doing so. Banks have to maintain their capital reserves at the Fed, and the Fed pays them the "federal funds rate" on those reserves. So if they can't lend out the capital, they have to keep it with the Fed, where it earns whatever rate the Fed chooses to give them.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by scott00 on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @09:39PM (#20691999)
> Now, if the risk-free rate is negative, you might reasonably ask: Why doesn't the bank just keep cash? And the answer to that is that they're legally prevented from doing so.

Some cursory research suggests this is not the case. The Federal Reserve website states: "Depository institutions must hold reserves in the form of vault cash or deposits with Federal Reserve Banks." [0]

[0] https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by darawk on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @10:05PM (#20692118)
Sorry, what I meant was that they cannot simply keep cash digitally without physically storing something.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by krastanov on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @06:02PM (#20690701)
This is fascinating news to me! Could you elaborate on how (legislatively) the banks are required to keep their reserves with the Fed? What would be a good source to read more?

How does what you said mesh with the notion that keeping cash might be riskier / more cumbersome than investing in the "risk-free" treasury bonds?

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by darawk on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @07:29PM (#20691285)
Sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_reserves

Banks are required by law to keep a portion of their assets on deposit in reserve. So if a bank has say, 1 billion in deposits, they might be required to maintain a balance with the Fed of 100 million.

What I think you're asking though is "why don't they just not keep the cash at the federal reserve". And the answer is that that's just not a thing you can do. Your bank maintains an account with the Fed - that's how it actually "stores" money. It can also physically store cash, but that comes with carrying costs (protecting it, etc.). Those carrying costs are one form of a negative interest rate.

At the end of the day, someone is storing the money somewhere. And the root-level money storer in the economy is the Fed. If the Fed wants to charge you 0.5%/year to store your money, what are your alternatives? You could keep physical cash. But then you have to protect it. You could invest in other assets, like stocks/bonds/mortgages, but those have risks. If you can't find any investments you like, and you don't want to physically store the cash, you don't really have any other choice.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by lbotos on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @06:43PM (#20691002)
Not GP, but at someone else on HN's suggestion, I've been following Khan Academy's banking course: https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-fi...
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by scott00 on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @09:45PM (#20692030)
I don't think it's actually true. See my response to GP.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @09:33PM (#20691970)
> they're legally prevented from doing so

No, they’re not. They must hold certain quantities of reserves with the Fed. But banks are free to hold the rest as cash in their vaults.

This is why many countries with negative rates still have zero deposit rates.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by darawk on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @10:06PM (#20692121)
Sorry, what I meant was that banks cannot simply keep cash digitally, without physically storing cash and thereby incurring costs associated with doing that.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by pbk1 on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:06PM (#20690243)
If I expected interest rates to go even more negative, buying a negative yielding bond in anticipation of a capital gain is a rational trade.

Also banks and certain investors are mandated to purchase debt with certain ratings - in the absence of positive-yielding appropriately rated bonds they have no choice but to accept the negative yield.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by programmertote on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @09:03PM (#20691825)
Could you elaborate on this a bit more? How could one gain anything from buying negative yielding bond?
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by rossriley on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @09:16PM (#20691882)
Because the bond pays out at the end of the term, but you can sell it at any point of the term for whatever the market price is.

So for example let's say you bought a -0.1% yield, but newly issued bonds are now only offering a -0.5% yield you can now actually sell your bonds paying out -0.1% at a profit, since even if they paid you a 3.5% premium on the price you paid, it would still be more attractive than the rate on offer for new bonds.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by pbk1 on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @01:26PM (#20697775)
Piggy backing off of this followup, bond prices move inversely with yields. Ceteris paribus, a -0.5% yielding bond commands a higher price than a -0.1% yielding bond. Bonds are quoted in yields but traded on a dollar price (typically as a percentage of par) hence the capital gain I implied above being realized with the higher price should yields/rates fall further.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by toomuchtodo on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @04:52PM (#20690108)
> but as an individual or institutional investor why would you ever want to hold something with negative interest instead of cash?

There are no effective ways besides these bonds to hold tens or hundreds of millions of dollars as cash, even if you hire a warehouse, security, and store pallets of fiat (which has been attempted). You are paying a premium for principal safety.

You either make this choice voluntarily as an asset manager, or because you are required by regulation or other means to hold a percentage of your portfolio in this asset class.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by dfischer on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @04:57PM (#20690159)
The latter is the biggest reason. Institutional funds are required to purchase these “low risk” items and many would argue is artificial demand so it ends up doing more harm than good.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by somebodythere on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @04:54PM (#20690129)
Also cash can be made illegal.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by rubbingalcohol on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:06PM (#20690247)
Technically but likely not functionally.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by kingo55 on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:44PM (#20690588)
True, but they can always impose greater restrictions such as how much you can spend with cash. Cash transaction limits have been decreasing for some time.

https://wolfstreet.com/2017/01/28/europe-limits-on-cash-tran...

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by samsonradu on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @04:59PM (#20690182)
This, coupled with the pure speculation that before the bonds mature there will be a 'bigger investor' paying more (pushing the yield lower and the value higher).
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by opportune on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @04:55PM (#20690140)
I'm clearly no expert but banks seem to be able to do this somehow, no?
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by wcoenen on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:14PM (#20690324)
Banks are special because they can deposit money with the central bank. The central bank won't disappear, and like most money it's just numbers in a database (nothing "backing" them) so there's no risk associated with these deposits.

But in the EU, the deposit rate set by the ECB is -0.40%. So that would explain why EU banks would be willing to buy negative yielding bonds instead to hold in reserve, as long as the yields on those are less negative.

But then the yield on German bunds is actually even lower, hitting -0.60% recently, so it's not just that.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by DennisP on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:13PM (#20690319)
Because if interest rates drop even lower, you can get capital gains on your bonds, especially if there's a lot of time left before they mature.

https://portfoliocharts.com/2019/05/27/high-profits-at-low-r...

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:41PM (#20690566)
If.

I have a hard time seeing interest rates continuing to drop, however. (On the other hand, I never thought I'd see them this low. But they can't keep going lower forever... can they?)

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by caseysoftware on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @10:26PM (#20692223)
It depends on how badly you want to drive "growth".

If you have $1000 today and can either spend it now or put it in the bank and withdraw $999 a year from now, what would you do? I suspect some would spend it now.

But what if that number goes down to $990 or $975? More and more people will be willing to spend it now instead of savings therefore "growing" the economy now.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by caseysoftware on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @10:30PM (#20692247)
Denmark has introduced a negative interest rate mortgage. That's an interesting one because if you borrow $200k today and only owe $195k in 10 years, what happens?

First, since you don't have to make payments, you can't default.

If you can't default, why bother with qualification?

If you don't have to qualify, is there an upper limit to how much you can/should borrow?

If there's no upper limit and you never have to pay, it doesn't matter whether the seller charges $100k or $1M or $10M.. it demonstrates that the entire system is entirely made up.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by Lukasa on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @02:50AM (#20693248)
You can definitely default on a negative rate mortgage, by not paying your monthly payment. You cannot pay nothing each month. Instead, the principal reduces each month by more than the amount you paid. You still have a term over which you have to pay the mortgage off. No-one is offering (or will offer) a negative interest rate _interest only_ mortgage.

Negative interest rates make sense if you consider them as a lender trading current cash-on-hand for future cash flow. That is, the bank has $200k today, but it would rather see that broken up into payments over 10 years, even if it has to pay you to do it.

When viewed through this lens, it becomes clear that the factor driving this is likely that the bank is being disincentivised from storing the cash directly.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @10:44PM (#20692310)
No, I'm pretty sure there's going to be an upper limit, and it's going to be somewhat less than 100% of the purchase price. It's not carte blanche to borrow unlimited amounts of money.

In fact, I would be surprised if you could get away with no payments (a balloon payment loan, as it were). I would be rather shocked if they were offering such loans.

Absent data that they are actually offering such loans (balloon and/or untethered to the price of the property), I find your conclusions unwarranted.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by caseysoftware on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @08:42PM (#20701525)
It's not all the way there but the first steps are occurring:

"In Denmark, the ultra-low interest rate environment has in turn caused home prices to increase as borrowers could afford pricier homes."

Ref: https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/markets/a-danish-bank-is-o...

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by gnopgnip on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @09:27PM (#20691940)
It is about risk adjusted return. There is risk and costs associated with stuffing your money in a mattress, or keeping it in other kinds of accounts. Really it is the same as asking why people would buy a treasury bond instead of a CD, or junk bond that pays more in interest.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by gpm on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @09:03PM (#20691826)
I would argue that the reason is simply that physically holding cash has a negative interest rate since you have to pay for a place to keep it, people to protect it, and accept the risk that it gets damaged, lost, or stolen.

This applies whether you are a person with a wallet/mattress, or a bank with a high security vault.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by ErikAugust on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @09:15PM (#20691879)
Yes, and due to inflation.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by gruez on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @11:45PM (#20692558)
>and due to inflation.

That happens regardless of the interest rate and affects both cash and bond/treasuries.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by wefarrell on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @04:55PM (#20690136)
It makes no sense for an individual, since you can keep your money in an FDIC insured account and earn a positive interest rate.

Institutions don't have that luxury - the government doesn't insure large amounts of cash. If they keep it in a bank and the bank goes under, they lose their money. So they keep their money in national governments, which are far safer than banks.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by gst on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:09PM (#20690273)
> Institutions don't have that luxury - the government doesn't insure large amounts of cash. If they keep it in a bank and the bank goes under, they lose their money. So they keep their money in national governments, which are far safer than banks.

Due to the low interest rates German insurance companies are already considering to store cash in their own vaults instead of buying bonds: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=de&tl=en&u=htt...

Slightly negative interest rates work because physically storing cash is going to be more expensive than buying bonds (especially if you factor in costs for security, insurance, etc.). But if interest rates decreases further it's soon going to be cheaper to store cash, which is going to create a lower bound for the interest rate (assuming the government doesn't prohibit storing large amounts of cash).

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by eigenvalue on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @06:02PM (#20690703)
My guess is that these analyses by insurance companies don't properly take into account the risk of theft. All that cash in a bunker makes a very appealing target for thieves, both insiders and outsiders. Also, if it starts happening with any frequency, the central banks will just forbid hording of cash (e.g., by refusing to allow member banks to provide the cash if it exceeds a certain amount).
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by outworlder on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @06:48PM (#20691051)
> My guess is that these analyses by insurance companies don't properly take into account the risk of theft.

So your guess is that insurance companies, companies for which their entire business model revolves around risk management, are not taking into account something as mundane as risk of theft?

That's a... curious line of reasoning.

Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by tim58 on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @10:44PM (#20692305)
I bet they even have theft insurance.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by quantguy11959 on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @04:59PM (#20690179)
It’s positive for now, in Europe the deposit accounts are negative as well for the most part.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by nawitus on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:22PM (#20690396)
They're positive for regular customers, but negative for large organizations.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by rocqua on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @02:49AM (#20693246)
I still get 0,05٪ interest! That is technically positive!
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by quantguy11959 on Wednesday August 14, 2019 @07:53AM (#20694532)
What’s 0.05% minus 1.5% inflation ? Negative
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by refurb on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:21PM (#20690377)
If you’re an individual with a lot of cash that would be a pain to split up into accounts with less than the FDIC insured limit, then a negative interest rate might be attractive.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by toomuchtodo on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:37PM (#20690540)
While true, cash management accounts that'll insure up to $1.5 million in cash across many underlying banks is now a commodity offering (Fidelity, SoFI, Personal Capital, to name a few). As an individual, it's rare you're keeping more than that liquid.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by basementcat on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:05PM (#20690235)
There’s no requirement that FDIC accounts must pay an interest rate above 0%. It is perfectly legal to charge fees to fund the continued operation of the bank.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by simplecomplex on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @05:24PM (#20690412)
There’s a market because a -1% rate is a better return on capital than -2%. You’re assuming people are choosing negative rates over positive. Even if bonds are negative investors may have no choice, it’s a better rate than letting the cash sit there.
Re:Interest Rates: Naturally Negative? by internet_user on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @11:34PM (#20692517)
currency would be on deposit at some bank, so it would essentially be a claim on that bank's balance sheet.

Bonds are claims on sovereigns with a printing press.

What has a lower chance of default?