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Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by MisterTea on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:00PM (#20619524)
The sad part of this whole article is this method of scanning a laser beam had to be devised to side step a patent that uses common galvanometers instead. So there isn't any new 3d printing technology here. Only a clever method to circumvent a silly patent.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by mensetmanusman on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:27PM (#20619810)
I work in the area of new intellectual property generation, and you (as was I) would be surprised to learn this is not actually a sad feature of the system.

There have been countless advancements in the sciences when people have been forced to work around existing IP and have uncovered hidden benefits when working through the actual implementation.

It is a hidden benefit of the western system of IP that China et al. have not yet caught on to.

Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by kevin_thibedeau on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:06PM (#20620193)
The problem is that, in 2019, most obvious methods of scanning a laser with moving mirrors should be covered by expired patents from 40-30 years ago.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by hexa_storm on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:26PM (#20620787)
You have to specify application in a patent. Riken desribed it for 3D printing in 1997 see https://sffsymposium.engr.utexas.edu/Manuscripts/1997/1997-2... but did not specify the use of laser diode as it was quite new at the time. It got only invented in 1996 by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuji_Nakamura who got a patent for the laserdiode but little rewards and fought with his employer over it.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by kevin_thibedeau on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:14PM (#20621096)
how is "obvious thing ... with a laser diode" any different than "obvious thing ... with a computer"?
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by mikekchar on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:54PM (#20621985)
Obvious things are not patentable in the first place, so it doesn't matter what the "with a X" refers to. That the patent office continues to patent things that are obvious to a normal practitioner is a serious problem. I think part of the problem is that the field of technology is so wide right now that most patent examiners aren't good at judging whether something is obvious or not -- so they don't generally attempt it. If it's novel, then it's not obvious, is what I think they are doing.

Having said all that "with a laser diode" is categorically different than "with a computer". In the latter case, you can do any general purpose computation you like. So if you have a machine driven by a computer, you should not be able to patent it if you would not ordinarily be able to patent the machine. In other words, the driving of the machine by a computer should not be patentable, IMHO. Of course it gets complicated as you add more and more machinery to the machine -- should "computer driving a car be patentable"? Probably it should as it is not just software, even though it requires software. I think it's tricky.

If a laser diode allows you to do things you wouldn't otherwise be able to do and that use of the diode is not obvious, then it probably should be patentable. However, generally if "machine with a laser" is not patentable, then "machine with a laser diode" should also not be patentable. There's got to be something special and non-obvious about the use of the laser diode.

Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by AstralStorm on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @03:59AM (#20632776)
Patent offices are patently not doing the job of rejecting obvious modifications. Of course lawyer mangling of the documents does not help with discerning whether something is new or not.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by thawkins on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:13PM (#20621780)
Rotating prisms for scanning lasers are old technology, they were used extensively in photo imagers used to produce film artwork for the printing industry, the most famous of which was the Lasercomp. I was working with these devices in the early 80's. I suspect there is a lot of precident patents and prior art.

https://www.prepressure.com/prepress/history/events-1976

Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by hexa_storm on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:36PM (#20619899)
It's true... if I wasn't forced to avoid the IP.. It would have been unlikely I would have made such an effort or this thing build.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by bdowling on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:43PM (#20620496)
Indeed, the ability to "invent around" a patent is essential because it means that patent-holders can't completely monopolize an idea. Instead, they only get to monopolize their specific inventions disclosed in their patent, and only for a limited time.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by StavrosK on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @08:16AM (#20624416)
So you're saying that duplicating effort everywhere is good because sometimes the duplication leads to some benefit?

Personally, I'd take the "have dirt-cheap home SLA printers ten years earlier" option, thank you.

Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by SkyMarshal on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @12:01AM (#20622008)
>It is a hidden benefit of the western system of IP that China et al. have not yet caught on to.

Oh China has caught on. When they see some new IP they want, they acquire it or steal it. Why bother with all those silly rules the West thinks are so important.

Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by hexa_storm on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:03PM (#20619554)
That is indeed.. how i decided to brand it and this seems working. In reality both systems have different optical properties; this does matter if you push them to the limits. Galvanometers are slow, require more calibration. Rotating devices don't stand still at the end of a sweep and are much faster (10 times).
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by thawkins on Monday August 05, 2019 @11:14PM (#20621788)
Galvanometer based systems often suffer from acceleration issues at the start and end of the swing which limits the usable spread.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by sydd on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:25PM (#20619790)
the concept is really cool, congrats! Can the prototype actually print? Do you have some photos of the printed stuff?
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by hexa_storm on Monday August 05, 2019 @06:31PM (#20619853)
This is how it prints on UV paper, https://cdn.hackaday.io/images/1013221548797737200.jpg . This is the calibration data recorded by imaging with the camera directly on a CMOS chip. You can count pixels.. this is what an expert needs to determine the quality. https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/21933938381472/calib_data.zip

More data is here https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/21933938381472/21measurements.... pixel 4.65 microns. You can use opencv to do the trick. I added a little script in this one.

Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by Someone on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:43PM (#20620903)
The patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US7892474B2/en) doesn’t seem to mention galvanometers at all.

It uses the phrase ”digital light processing/digital micromirror device”.

I don’t know how that slash should be interpreted. If it’s “aka”, the patent doesn’t cover using prisms.

I wouldn’t bet on that, though, noting that the patent is careful to avoid the term “light”, using the broader “electromagnetic radiation” instead.

Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by hexa_storm on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:54PM (#20620964)
the rotating reflective polygon patent is this one US9079355 I think it is even more relevant but somehow it did not get posted. https://patents.google.com/patent/US9079355B2/en
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by hexa_storm on Tuesday August 13, 2019 @02:20PM (#20688736)
claim 1 in US7892474B2... by means of mask exposure ... so prisms brings you around it.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by xvilka on Monday August 05, 2019 @09:02PM (#20621014)
Only proves that patents are a hindrance to the progress, not a solution to speed it up.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by The_rationalist on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:29AM (#20624182)
Why people are so greedy? Let's say X make an innovation that necessitate the use an older patent from inventor Y.

Three things: 1) X has not to pay anything to conceptualize his innovation. 2) X can make a nested patent. 3) a user of the innovation of x must pay a royaltie (why is that an issue?) to Y. If X made a nested patent, the user must pay X and Y. Is this right?

BTW who fixe the amount of royalties?

Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by Damogran6 on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @09:45AM (#20625086)
Presumably each chunk of royalty makes it that much harder to sell a successful product. Often these fess are significantly higher than nearly any other component on the device (think Qualcomm for cellphones and Fraunhofer for mp3 decoding)

Nobody's going to buy the $100 item if it provides $15 amount of value, and nobody's going to make it for $15 if $9 of it is going to licensing.

Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by AstralStorm on Wednesday August 07, 2019 @04:03AM (#20632783)
In which case licensing fees should be explicitly capped. E.g. to a percentage of revenue you make off the device.

That'd stop patent trolls and silly patent holdings dead. You don't use it, you can't charge others.

If someone starts using it, you would charge a percentage royalty.

Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by The_rationalist on Thursday August 08, 2019 @07:50AM (#20643614)
Exactly, there should be a political push for this!
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by The_rationalist on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:31PM (#20628042)
Yes, but I observe on the net what seems to be an aversion to pay all patents even if it only cost a few cents. The price per unit of the concerned patent is never talked about and this irrational aversion is an issue. Websites displaying patent content should display price too. I don't know if patents are generally overpriced but patent owner have an incentive to maximize their benefits which means they probably want to maximize the number of users of the patents by making it cheap.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by rasz on Monday August 05, 2019 @07:59PM (#20620619)
laser printers use rotating mirror instead of galvanometers
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by antisemiotic on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:33AM (#20622732)
I was to a couple additive manufacturing exhibitions and conferences, and generally the people from the metal 3d printing industry seem to call all laser pointing devices "galvanoscanners", regardless of actual construction.
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by hexa_storm on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @02:50AM (#20622801)
rotating mirrors are too fast for laser industry, it requires a very fast switchable laser, like the one developed by european union https://www.razipol.eu/
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by antisemiotic on Tuesday August 06, 2019 @07:51AM (#20624295)
Rotating mirrors here means continuously rotating, not precise rotation to some particular point? I misunderstood then, yeah, that kind of mirrors aren't used there (I think).
Re:Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon ... by hexa_storm on Monday August 05, 2019 @08:28PM (#20620793)
they use glass lenses and infrared, cross scan error must be quite significant due to long separation distance between polygon and substrate.