News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by noego on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:01PM (#20594523)
Finance 101: Being cash-rich is a major advantage in environments where fundraising is a major hurdle, and where the funds can be put to productive use very quickly. For example, for a startup to raise funds for a major marketing campaign, it has to go through a lengthy and attention-demanding process of pitching to VCs and negotiating terms. Hence why having a big war-chest ready to fire, can be a competitive advantage for a startup.

For big public companies, it's the opposite. If a company wants to fundraise 10% of its market-cap, either for an acquisition or major investment, it doesn't require nearly as much effort. It can issue new shares, and immediately sell them to investors the next day for cash. The hard part is finding profitable investments, not raising the funds to make it happen. Hence why there's little competitive advantage in hoarding cash.

On the flip side, having a big cash hoard is bad for your investors' returns. It bloats your market-cap, without having any impact on earnings. This means that your P/E ratio is now inflated, and your earnings yield is reduced. From an investor's perspective, if you have invested $100 in the company, you're only only getting back $6 in profits every year, not $7 or $8.

Another way to look at this, is that Google/Apple invest their cash hoard very conservatively, in things like short-term treasuries, because of which their returns are very low. Whereas most of their investors would far prefer to invest the money in investments that produce better returns, such as the S&P 500. By not returning the cash hoard to its investors, Google is essentially forcing them to make low-return investments that they would never make otherwise. Of course, investors aren't going to be happy with this, and they will retaliate by lowering their valuation of GOOG stock, thus depressing the share price.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by jjeaff on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:33PM (#20594853)
Ya, that's finance 101. But here's Finance 5400:

Smart, wealthy shareholders love cash hoarding. Especially if the cash is held tax free in overseas accounts.

The share price is boosted allowing them to get returns in the form of pure capital gains.

If the company were to pay dividends, sure, most of those dividends would be taxed at capital gains rates as well. But that money has to be taxed at the highest US corporate income tax rate first. Thus, significantly reducing overall value.

To go a step further, the wealthy don't even have to cash out their shares as the price climbs and climbs. They can get low interest loans using the shares as collateral. This deferring taxes indefinitely and leaving all their capital in these huge companies that are outperforming the SP500 anyway.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by Skunkleton on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:27PM (#20595357)
> Ya, that's finance 101. But here's Finance 5400:

And another point: you have to imagine that the richest companies in the world have the best possible financial expertise on staff. It is safe to assume they know what they are doing.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by MegaButts on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:56PM (#20595598)
While I think you're probably right, a blanket assumption that "they're smarter therefore they know best" is why everyone was so surprised by what happened to Enron. I do not think this is the case with Alphabet, just saying you shouldn't blindly trust experts. There's also the subprime mortgages issue from just over 10 years ago which is much better understood now, but at the time people didn't understand them and just assumed the experts were right.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by nostromo on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:02PM (#20595639)
And Bear Stearns, and Washington Mutual, and Deutsche Bank, and AIG, etc., etc.

"It is safe to assume they know what they are doing" because they're managing a ton of money has been proven wrong over and over again.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by dahfizz on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:25PM (#20595821)
Nobody is claiming that money managers have omniscience.

What they do certainly have is more information and expertise than a random internet commenter. They don't know everything, but it's safe to assume they know more than you.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by TheGRS on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:40PM (#20595948)
Well the actual decision-making tends to be more important than just what one knows. A pile of cash seems more indicative of investment paralysis than some grander strategy. Like, "we can't figure out the best investment to make with this money, so the safest thing we can do is hoard it until we come up with a better idea".
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by dahfizz on Friday August 02, 2019 @04:53PM (#20596564)
Again, this is pure speculation. You have approximately 0% of the information available to the people who make these decisions, so why bother guessing? It's boring and pointless.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by TheGRS on Friday August 16, 2019 @04:09PM (#20719207)
I would argue its actually kind of fun to speculate, but fair enough.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by i_cant_speel on Friday August 02, 2019 @04:14PM (#20596210)
At the end of the day look where the major banks ended up after the crisis. Mostly unchanged. They knew what they were doing. It's just that what they were doing wasn't in the public's interest.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by awad on Friday August 02, 2019 @08:59PM (#20597933)
Better than unchanged, even. Sure, some lost and were scooped up, but by and large the financial sector is even stronger than before with all of the consolidation that's happened.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by whatshisface on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:30PM (#20595376)
The goals of extremely ABC-heavy portfolios (i.e. those of its founders and top executives) probably involve a lot less volatility for ABC than diversified external investors would want to see.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by noego on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:23PM (#20595807)
> "Smart, wealthy shareholders love cash hoarding"

Any evidence to back this up? Activist investors generally pressure companies to not hoard cash, for exactly the reasons outlined earlier. Example: http://money.com/money/3484599/icahn-letter-apple-cash/

"Icahn controls 53 million shares of Apple, worth $5.3 billion, which gives him about a 0.9% ownership in the company. In his letter, Icahn lays out his reasons that Apple should repurchase its own shares"

Companies can return money to investors using share-buybacks - this avoids any taxable event for investors, while also not suffering from the downsides of hoarding cash.

There is one significant tactic where it makes sense to hoard cash temporarily - keeping it overseas while waiting for a tax holiday or a reduction in the tax rates. This only works as a temporary tactic though. If any company announced that they were going to hoard cash over a long period, it would depress the share-price significantly. This is exactly why activist investors like Icahn pressure their companies to reduce their cash hoards.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by spullara on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:40PM (#20595946)
Repurchasing shares though is better for him than dividends. Decreasing the supply of shares, which increases the per share price, can often be better for investors than getting the cash directly.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by mhb on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:24PM (#20595335)
How does hoarding cash increase the share price to generate those capital gains?

Shouldn't they be buying back their own shares?

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by ceejayoz on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:31PM (#20595381)
The company's market cap will typically factor in the giant hoard of cash. As it increases, so does the stock.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by nootka on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:21PM (#20595791)
Doesn't that contradict noego's ultimate point?
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by sokoloff on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:34PM (#20595897)
A company that has an extra $100MM in cash will have a market cap approximately $100MM higher than the same company without the extra cash.

noego's point is that that $100MM might be more valuable if freed up to invest in a risk-asset, but not that is has no value whatsoever.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by olde_fortran on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:38PM (#20594903)
Dividends at taxed at income tax rates
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by _delirium on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:03PM (#20595160)
True for ordinary dividends, but almost all stock dividends meet the criteria to be treated as qualified dividends, taxed at capital gain rates. For example, in Vanguard's S&P 500 index fund, about 98% of dividends are qualified [1]. Of commonly traded classes of stocks, only real-estate funds mostly pay out ordinary dividends.

[1] https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/iip/advisor/csa/investme...

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by jjeaff on Friday August 02, 2019 @05:25PM (#20596783)
But you are forgetting the fact that the corporation will have to pay corporate income tax on that money before they can use it to pay your dividend.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by wahern on Saturday August 03, 2019 @12:47AM (#20598731)
That's true, regardless. They paid tax earning that $100M. What they do after is irrelevant, as neither dividends nor buybacks are tax deductible.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by jjeaff on Monday August 12, 2019 @01:40AM (#20672734)
No, they didn't necessarily pay tax earning that 100m. See double irish sandwich and other modern tax avoidance strategies allowing companies like apple to hold infinite amounts of cash in overseas accounts tax free.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by winter_blue on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:07PM (#20595190)
In the U.S., if you've held the stock for at least one year, its dividends are taxed at a very favorable long-term capital gains rate. Stock held for less than a year is however taxed like regular income.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by jjeaff on Friday August 02, 2019 @05:28PM (#20596809)
It's not that favorable if all the corporate cash is stored overseas in low tax holding countries.

The corporation will have to repatriate the money and pay corporate income tax on it before they give you your dividends.

Alternatively, they could just grow that hoard of cash and let your stock appreciate after which you can sell a few shares and get capital gains rates on capital that didn't have to be double taxed.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by sokoloff on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:49PM (#20596023)
The required holding period for qualified dividends in the US is typically 60 days, not 1 year.

(It's 90 days for preferred shares.)

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by sureshv on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:01PM (#20595142)
They are taxed as capital gains for recipients.

Edit: *qualified dividends

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by nickles on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:03PM (#20595157)
> They are taxed as capital gains for recipients.

No, ordinary dividends are taxed as income.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by usrusr on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:37PM (#20595449)
> They can get low interest loans using the shares as collateral. This deferring taxes indefinitely

And in case a superinflation strikes, all those loans are effectively wiped out while they keep the assets (the corporate off-shore hoard might suffer as well though, but it might be sufficiently mobile and well-managed to avoid the worst). If capitalism was a video game, it would get terrible ratings due to utterly botched difficulty scaling.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by eigenvalue on Friday August 02, 2019 @02:53PM (#20595560)
Yeah, but in a sharp downturn you get margin called and possibly wiped out if you aren’t careful. A lot more rich people have lost everything from that sort of problem than the number of rich people made even richer as a result of extreme inflation. And Weimar like inflation seems increasingly less of a near term risk considering that German 30 year yields just turned negative for the first time ever today.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by jjeaff on Friday August 02, 2019 @05:23PM (#20596772)
These ultra high net worth people are getting loans at such low interest rates because the collateral is so much larger than the loan.

If you have $10B in stock, you probably aren't going to borrow so much as to even get close to a margin call in a market downturn.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by aresant on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:01PM (#20595631)
“Google/Apple invest their cash hoard very conservatively, in things like short-term treasuries, because of which their returns are very low”

This is actually wrong.

Apple alone wholly owns one of the world’s largest investment funds - Braeburn Capital - that actively manages over $270b of Apples assets leveraging very sophisticated investment strategies.

The extent to which managing its cash is now a value-add part of Apple’s business is well outlined in the tongue-in-cheek article from WSJ “Apple Is a Hedge Fund That Makes Phones”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/apple-...

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by earenndil on Friday August 02, 2019 @06:19PM (#20597095)
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by myroon5 on Friday August 02, 2019 @08:42PM (#20597861)
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by mercules on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:21PM (#20594752)
At the same time, companies with a strong warchest are better prepared to weather the storm of an economic downturn and to afterwards, purchase valuable assets for pennies on the dollar.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by gvhst on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:29PM (#20594824)
Buffett puts this well when he says:

> “Every decade or so, dark clouds will fill the economic skies, and they will briefly rain gold. When downpours of that sort occur, it's imperative that we rush outdoors carrying washtubs, not teaspoons. And that we will do.”

The thing here is you have to be confident in your ability to deploy capital during those downturns. Your average expected return over multiple cycles (cash returns mid/late cycle + opportunistic investments beginning of cycle) needs to be higher than broad equity returns.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by mastratton3 on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:55PM (#20596061)
^This.. I don't see why people thinking hoarding cash when capital is cheap is a bad strategy. It totally ignores the fact that ease of raising and cost of capital is time dependent. If you had a war chest of cash in 2008/2009, that'd be insanely valuable.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by ptr on Friday August 02, 2019 @05:04PM (#20596634)
On the other hand, that's timing the market. But as the common wisdom goes, time in market pays better. Or does it? Do these companies know something that we don't? Is it different when you have piles of money?
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by ajross on Friday August 02, 2019 @03:13PM (#20595728)
> On the flip side, having a big cash hoard is bad for your investors' returns.

This is absolutely true, but sort of misses the point. What happens in practice is that such stocks end up being disfavored and investors prefer to buy other securities with better dividends. Which has the effect of depressing the share price. Which has the effect of making it harder for the company to raise money via issuing debt or stock.

...which the company doesn't care about in the first place, because it's sitting on a truck load of cash and doesn't need to raise money.

Honestly, the jury is very much out on whether or not this kind of behavior is bad for companies in a micro sense. Really all it means in practice is that these companies haven't been able to find a way to invest this money productively, they're out of ideas to purse, or markets to expand into. And that's bad, but it's not bad because of cash.

In a macro sense, though, the argument is clearer: all that money sitting around doing nothing (well, nothing but sitting around in safe investments) does nothing for the GDP as a whole, and in particular it does nothing for the bulk of the population with little to no investment holdings.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by LeifCarrotson on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:21PM (#20594745)
> Whereas most of their investors would far prefer to invest the money in investments that produce better returns, such as the S&P 500.

Curiously, GOOG and AAPL are two of the many large companies who have large cash hoards who are themselves part of the S&P 500.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by matthewvincent on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:22PM (#20594762)
Apple has spent ~30 billion on share buybacks this year so, I’d say pretty shareholder friendly.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by nootka on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:34PM (#20594861)
How does cash raise market cap aside from maybe causing uninformed investors to drive the price up? Isn't market cap share price * shares outstanding? Hence, capitalization in the market, rather than capital available internally.
Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by Expez on Friday August 02, 2019 @01:57PM (#20595103)
Imagine a company has 100 shares and for argument's sake let's assume that company is never going to turn a profit but break even forever.

What would you pay for one of those shares? Nothing, right? The company is worthless.

Now imagine that same company has a bank balance of $100. Each share now also owns a 1% share of the bank balance (because it owns 1% of the company itself). How much would you pay for such a share? Anything below a dollar seems pretty good to me!

In other words, the more valuable assets the company holds, the more we'd be willing to pay for shares of the company, all else equal. This is called the 'book value' of a company and is total assets - intangible assets (patents, goodwill) and liabilities.

Note that the real-life situation is slightly more complex because you can't always get at the assets, even if you buy the shares for cents on the dollar. But the general idea is that you can buy shares until you have enough voting rights to dole out the cash as dividends.

Re:Alphabet overtakes Apple to become most cash-rich company by tasuki on Friday August 02, 2019 @05:01PM (#20596616)
Yes market cap is share price * shares outstanding. The shares that are bought-back are destroyed, lowering the number of shares outstanding, increasing the per-share price.