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Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by umvi on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:02PM (#20579006)
Very cool! I know nothing about solar sails, but I wonder if the craft could have LEDs mounted to it so it could bombard different regions of the sail with photons to make it turn appropriately.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by Rychard on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:10PM (#20579061)
I would assume the number of photons coming from the sun is many orders of magnitude higher than any LED could ever hope to produce.

This is of course overlooking the whole "pull oneself up by one's bootstraps" vibe.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by henryfjordan on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:05PM (#20579032)
If you emit a particle (a photon) and then catch it the net effect will be 0.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by simplicio on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:19PM (#20579144)
But if your emitter emits in every direction (like a lightbulb) and you only catch the ones going in one direction in the sail, you'd propel yourself in that direction.

So having a directional lightsource fire into the sail wouldn't work, but having one that emits light in every direction on one side of the sail would.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by bsmith0 on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:29PM (#20579255)
So just use a directional light source pointing away from the craft...
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by moopling on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:11PM (#20579078)
Exactly, it is much like using a fan on a boat to blow a sail.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by redorb on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:16PM (#20579111)
mythbusters were able to show a weird effect where the fan on a boat thing worked - I think they chalked it up to some blown wind from the fan drawing in more than from around the fan..

https://youtu.be/uKXMTzMQWjo?t=75

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by walrus01 on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @07:01PM (#20579488)
From a physics point of view it's not like they created an infinite motion machine, the stored energy in the liquid petroleum is being burned, heat from the internal combustion engine radiated into the atmosphere, etc.

It's just converting stored energy (some amount of kJ or kWh in a fuel tank, or battery) into an aerodynamically weird highly inefficient thrust method.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by umvi on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:16PM (#20579113)
Net effect is not zero if the photon bounces off of the sail
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by comboy on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:24PM (#20579204)
Why use sail then? You can just shoot your photon the opposite way.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by seiferteric on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:55PM (#20579459)
That would be a "photon rocket" which is an existing idea, but requires a lot of energy, whereas this uses free energy from the sun.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by gitgud on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:26PM (#20579221)
If it bounces off in the opposite direction then the net effect would be actually be negative.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by omarhaneef on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:13PM (#20579089)
That would be like taking fan and blowing it into your own sails. It wouldn't work.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by umvi on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:15PM (#20579105)
It does work though, depending on the material your sail is made of.

Try it: attach an electric fan to a pinewood derby car and point it so it is blowing into a tin foil sail also attached to the pine wood derby car. The car will move forward.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by zaphoyd on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:20PM (#20579158)
An electric fan on a derby car works the same way a propeller does though right? You don’t need the sail at all. It works by pushing against the surrounding medium. This seems different than a laser in a vacuum.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by packet_nerd on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @08:46PM (#20580211)
> It works by pushing against the surrounding medium.

Not really. If a fan was able to blow air in a vacuum it would produce thrust as well. Basically a rocket does that. It's just blowing gasses out the back.

It's Newton's law of motion, "every action has an equal and opposite reaction".

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by umvi on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:26PM (#20579222)
I'm saying the electric fan is pointed so that it is blowing air in the forward direction. A sail at the front of the car will catch said air and propel the car forward. I'm sure it would work in a vacuum too if you had a CO2 canister mounted to the car blowing forward into the sail.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by natosaichek on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @09:06PM (#20580320)
No it will not.

If you attach a fan to a derby car and point it backwards, the car will move forwards. If you redirect the fan so it's pointing forward, the car will move backwards. If you put a sail in the way, the car will move backwards less efficiently. If you make a perfect sail that blocks all the air from the fan, it will not move at all.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by AmericanChopper on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @11:23PM (#20580841)
> If you make a perfect sail that blocks all the air from the fan, it will not move at all.

It should push the fan and the sail apart, which could result in a structural failure.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by tsukikage on Thursday August 01, 2019 @03:45AM (#20581854)
Until it does, though, the air from the fan will bounce off the sail and go (mostly) backwards, propelling the craft forwards (for the same reason, albeit much less efficiently, as if you had no sail and just pointed the fan backwards. You've basically made a thrust vectored device, badly).
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by AmericanChopper on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:16AM (#20582291)
A sail is used to create drag. If the air from the fan hit the sail and dispersed perfectly perpendicular to it, then it wouldn’t move the craft at all.

The more realistic outcome would be that the sail did not disperse the air with perfect efficiency, and the craft would just move backwards.

What you’re describing would require redirecting the flow of air backwards, like a curved exhaust. Which is really just a less efficient version of turning the fan around.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by jimktrains2 on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:21PM (#20579170)
Perhaps I'm being a dunce right now, but doesn't the fan exert a force on the car opposite the direction of flow, and wouldn't that force necessarily be greater than the force of capturing the same flow in a sail?

Also, why not just use the fan or laser or led as the means of propulsion directly?

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by umvi on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:42PM (#20579354)
No, because of conservation of momentum. Same reason a jet engine can move a piece of metal to reverse its thrust
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by jimktrains2 on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @09:06PM (#20580319)
Sure, the air hitting the sail would impart a force on the craft, but there is also a force from the fan?

I guess I think of reversers as redirecting the jet blast in a controlled manner, I guess I don't think of the sail as redirecting the wind in a controlled manner.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by blacksmith_tb on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:29PM (#20579260)
You'd need to have some very smooth bearings to make that even possible (given that the fan would have to weigh about as much as the car), but the physics seem off, the fan pushes air away from it, the air pushes the fan backwards...
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by umvi on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:46PM (#20579394)
The sail acts as a reverse thruster, transferring the momentum from the air molecules to the craft. Same physics behind jet engine reverse thrusters - it just redirects the air in a different direction.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by omarhaneef on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:17PM (#20579122)
I thought you want the LED mounted on the spacecraft itself.

That would be the equivalent of the fan being on the sailboat.

Yes, if you had another power boat next to the sailboat you could blow the boat, but it would be transferring some energy from the engine of the powerboat.

So if you had another spacecraft near the space sail, and that spacecraft was shooting light, it would have some miniscule effect, but I didn't think that is what you meant.

Edit: I suspect you're kidding but I can't be sure.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by umvi on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:20PM (#20579164)
That's what I'm talking about. A handheld fan[1] is on the pinewood derby car, same as the sail. I built one before so I know it works.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Aluan-Handheld-Portable-Adjustable-Re...

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by omarhaneef on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:23PM (#20579188)
Okay, I am not more sure you are kidding but to be fair to me, I had no context for your joking ways before.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by Skunkleton on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:18PM (#20579133)
It only works because the fan pushes against something not directly connected to the car. This is the same reason you can't use a jet engine in space.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by RonaldRaygun on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:50PM (#20579419)
This is actually a common misconception about how jet engines work. The engine is not pushing against the surrounding medium (the air), it is operating purely due to the conservation of momentum of throwing combustion byproducts at a high velocity in the opposite direction. This is the same principle upon which a rocket engine operates, the difference being that the jet only needs to bring along fuel for the combustion reaction, thereby massively increasing the efficiency of the engine by making use of ambient atmospheric oxygen.

In fact, a jet engine could in theory (ignoring things like heat rejection) operate just fine in space if you brought along a massive bag of air and hooked it up to the intake duct. But then you've basically just designed the world's worst rocket engine :)

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by checktheorder on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @07:22PM (#20579650)
Well put. For anyone interested in the similarities of jet engines and rocket engines, read up on the SABRE engine that the UK company Reaction Engines is working on for the proposed Skylon spaceplane. SABRE is a hybrid that's designed to work like a jet engine straight from its horizontal take-off up to about Mach 5.5+ and 25Km in altitude. Higher/faster than that, it switches from using atmospheric oxygen to oxygen stored in its fuel tanks and works like a rocket engine. (Of course the technical details are far more complex than that, but that's the TL;DR.)

Using atmospheric oxygen for the early phase of flight is a massive weight savings. If/when SABRE works, the Skylon spaceplane could be a practical reusable SSTO. It could carry a very respectable payload mass (the aim is 11-17 metric tonnes) to LEO, and it could do so quite cheaply if the designers' claims pan out.

Fun fact for Kerbal fans: the RAPIER engine in the game is inspired by SABRE.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by Skunkleton on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @07:15PM (#20579602)
This is just a complicated way of saying the same thing. Of course a jet engine is not just a really fast propeller. And if you hooked a "bag of air" to a propeller, that would also work in space.

Either way, an LED is not generating any meaningful thrust, and pointing that thrust at a sail adds no benefit.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by wiredfool on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:31AM (#20582354)
No, it's not.

A propeller makes thrust like a paddle, by pushing off of something. A jet/rocket engine makes thrust by recoil, using conservation of momentum.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by 8456523 on Thursday August 01, 2019 @05:44AM (#20582415)
Almost all modern jet engines have (ducted) fans. In planes that never go supersonic, e.g., all current commercial airliners, the fan provides most, but not all, the propulsion. And the only difference between a fan an a propeller is how many blades it has. (The presence of a duct around the fan does not change anything basic.)

But even if they did not have fans, there is no fundamental difference between using a propeller or fan to speed up the flow of air and heating the air inside a chamber to speed up the flow of air. (The fan is used because at subsonic speeds it can be made more efficient.)

In other words, all 3 means of propulsion work by conservation of momentum.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by umvi on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:27PM (#20579239)
So you are saying if I put the car in a vacuum chamber and mounted a CO2 cartridge instead, it wouldn't work?
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by Skunkleton on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @07:20PM (#20579633)
The basic physics at work here is conservation of momentum. Rockets work because they are sending mass in the opposite direction of the main vessel. If you draw a box around the whole system (rocket + spent fuel), you have net zero momentum.

There is a whole separate device called an EM Drive, which claims to basically violate conservation of momentum. It is highly controversial, and unlikely to be anything other than a measurement mistake.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by Skunkleton on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @07:06PM (#20579526)
Of course it would, but what wouldn't work is bouncing that CO2 off of some sail.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by f5thesystem on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @08:15PM (#20580046)
I would think a sail, or rudder, could redirect the force from the CO2 canister.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by Skunkleton on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @10:45PM (#20580729)
It could, but it would be significantly more efficient to just point the CO2 canister in a different direction.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by cgh on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:12PM (#20579084)
That's like trying to propel your sailboat by holding up an electric fan.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by moron4hire on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:52PM (#20579438)
Which can be done, because the sail is not just being pushed by the air, it's also redirecting the flow of air. The momentum of the fan pulling the air in does cancel any momentum imparted to the sail as the air pushes it, but there is also momentum gained by the air molecules rebounding back, away from the sail. It's (partially) the same reason you can sail perpendicular to the wind (the shape of the keel is also important), or sail faster than wind. Sailing is not air pushing on a sail, it's air rebounding away from the sail.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by Cogito on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @09:16PM (#20580371)
> Sailing is not air pushing on a sail, it's air rebounding away from the sail.

To add just a tiny amount of nuance - sailing is redirecting airflow with a sail.

Surface and flow effects mean that very little air should be bouncing off the sail. If there is you probably have a lot of turbulence, and a 'bubble' will form around the sail around which most of the wind will simply divert, rather than redirect.

Or to put it another way, think of an entire parcel of air rebounding away from the sail, not individual air molecules.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by moron4hire on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @10:08PM (#20580600)
Right, a sail has more in common with a wing than a parachute. The force that is propelling the sailboat is basically lift—turned sideways—not collision.

Which, to bring it back to the origin of this thread of armchair physicists incorrecting each other, means that an LED mounted on a solar sail would not work, because the only force it imparts is collision. Which makes the sail analogy kind of a bad one for the use of solar pressure as a driving force.

Edit: Hmmm, but what if the surface material of the sail were phosphorescent and could gain energy state from the solar pressure, then kick it a photon when dropping energy state? And then what if there were a fly wheel (magnetic axel, in the vacuum of space, extremely low friction) that could act as the keel... Hmmmmmmm

Edit 2: I wonder if a lens that refracted light similarly to how air flows over an airfoil would create a "solar lift" effect? Unfortunately, lenses are heavy.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by umvi on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:14PM (#20579094)
I mean, it's only the size of a boxing ring, not a football field. I think LEDs could produce enough light to have a net effect.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by Skunkleton on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:21PM (#20579171)
No. Think of the photons as producing little pushes. When they are emitted by the LED, they produce a little push in one direction, and then the sail pushes a little bit back in the other direction.

If it were possible to create a significant volume of thrust from photons emitted by LEDs, then you would be better off just pointing the LEDs away from where you wanted to go (like a rocket).

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by bmdavi3 on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:18PM (#20579138)
I don't know if the strength of an LED is enough to move the craft significantly, but if it is you'd need to point it at anything _but_ the ship itself, otherwise the two forces would cancel out. Just shine it in the opposite direction of where you want to go.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by umvi on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:23PM (#20579192)
No, the two forces don't cancel out, I can't remember exactly why but elastic collisions don't work like that. That's why you can point a fan into your sailboat's sail and it will still go forward, mythbusters proved it.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by mkl on Thursday August 01, 2019 @07:48AM (#20582955)
Mythbusters demonstrated something different, and something much less efficient than simply pointing the fan backwards like a normal fan boat (no sail required). Here: https://mythresults.com/blow-your-own-sail
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by walrus01 on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @07:05PM (#20579520)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_rocket

It's a real idea, but you would need a truly ridiculous amount of electricity available on a spacecraft. Only possible by a huge nuclear reactor. Doesn't violate any laws of physics.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by mkl on Thursday August 01, 2019 @07:53AM (#20582975)
There are key differences with that: either the photons are shot backwards (like a rocket), or the source of the photons is not on the ship itself. ("The limitations posed by the rocket equation can be overcome, as long as the reaction mass is not carried by the spacecraft.")
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by tfolbrecht on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @09:57PM (#20580558)
I'm curious if you could selectively turn off the reflective effect in different regions of the material and steer it that way.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by andygates on Friday August 02, 2019 @08:35AM (#20592489)
IKAROS used this technique. The bird was spin-stabilised and a section of the sail had LCD shades that could be dark or light. It could darken its, say, venus-side segments as they went round.

Gloriously over-engineered.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by blacksmith_tb on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:15PM (#20579109)
Not a sailor (solar or otherwise) but my instinct is you could turn by "furling" parts of the sail (say, if there were vanes that could be turned perpendicularly to the flow of photons). But lots of designs seem to call for propulsion from a laser, so maybe that could just be angled away slightly. At astronomic distances that might be tough, though.
Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by hinkley on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:46PM (#20579395)
Supposedly, if you are orbiting the sun, you can turn a solar sail in such a way that you can brake against the solar wind, thereby moving in-system rather than out.

But the sailing analogy breaks down for turning. A boat is pushing against the water and the wind. That gives it the ability to do things that you can’t in a vacuum, like move faster than the wind. For ‘turning’ you have only thrust vectoring, right?

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by db48x on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @11:03PM (#20580792)
There are several control methods available to solar sails that can work. They were studied quite extensively by NASA during the 60s.

The thrust generated by a solar sail is proportional to the angle between it and the sun, as is the direction of that thrust. If any part of your sail can twist, then you have steering vanes that are quite useful. You can twist the vanes to angles where the vane on one side of the craft is reflecting sunlight while the one on the other side is not in order to get a rotational acceleration.

If your sail is carrying a payload, then that payload will likely be in the center of the craft, with the sail spread out around it symmetrically. If you can shift the payload side to side relative to the sail, then that will shift the center of mass of the whole craft. With more of the sail to one side of the center of mass you will again get a rotation.

If you want more information, find a copy of the book Space Sailing by Jerome Wright; it's quite good.

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by comboy on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @06:15PM (#20579106)
This kind of technology had been demonstrated many years ago and many people around the world had been watching it at the time[1].

1. https://i.imgur.com/VL0Q9hT.gif

Re:LightSail 2 Spacecraft Successfully Demonstrates Flight b... by JshWright on Wednesday July 31, 2019 @10:40PM (#20580717)
Changing orientation is easily done using spinning masses (this is how most satelites maintain their orientation)