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Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by LogicHoleFlaw on Saturday May 31, 2008 @04:51AM (#205179)
Basic sleep hygiene is a good starting point. Sleep on a consistent schedule 7 days a week. Use your bedroom only for sleeping. Don't read, work, or study there. Avoid eating right before bedtime. Get away from bright lights, emissive display devices, and loud noises for about an hour before you go to bed. Exercise is great too, but not right before bedtime. Do note that once you start using this routine it may take 4 to 6 weeks to really see the benefits.

SwellJoe's comments on caffeine and sugar are true. My doctor told me that caffeine has about a 10-hour half-life. After noon it's generally something I avoid.

If you try these things (or at least a good portion of them) and you don't see any improvement it's time to start looking at health conditions rather than merely poor habits. Sleep apnea is a major cause of chronic exhaustion. Restless Leg Sydrome is another. With both of these you are constantly waking up during the night and never attain the deep sleep needed to rest.

My father had sleep apnea - when he did an overnight EEG sleep study the doctors determined that he was waking up over 80 times an hour due to airway blockage. He started using a CPAP about two years ago. The CPAP is a face mask which generates positive air pressure to keep airways open. The difference was dramatic. He's much more energetic, much less grumpy, and has in general been much happier since he started using it.

I personally had awful sleep for years. I was perpetually exhausted. The only way I was able to sleep was to stay awake for 24 to 36 hours and then pass out for 12 to 18 hours. I was miserable. I finally broke down my pride and went to see a sleep specialist. I implemented the sleep hygiene strategies and saw slight improvements but no major gains. I didn't have RLS or apnea, so the possible suspects were narrowing down. On a long shot we decided to try a medication called Rozerem. It's a synthesized melatonin available as a prescription. In most people the pineal gland regulates the sleep/wake cycle via the production of melatonin. As it turns out I have extremely low melatonin production, so my body never got the signal to shut down and sleep. With the introduction of melatonin in pill form about an hour before bed I was actually able to get a good night's rest. The difference was astounding. I had forgotten what being rested even felt like. Interestingly the melatonin had an immediate dramatic effect on me. It doesn't force drowsiness like a sedative does. It allows me to feel sleepy (rather than just tired or exhausted). Rozerem won't do anything for someone with normal melatonin production however. Past a certain level the body just metabolizes the extra melatonin and it is neutralized. For the same reason increasing the dosage of the medication won't have any effect.

For me the combination of improved sleep hygiene and the synthesized melatonin made a dramatic difference in my quality of life. Treating my father's sleep problems made him a much happier individual. If your doctor thinks that a medication for RLS will help you attain better sleep, I highly recommend that you at least try his suggestions. There is no substitute for being well-rested and you owe it to yourself to find out what will allow you to gain a good night's sleep.

Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by gizmo on Saturday May 31, 2008 @07:35AM (#205216)
There's no way coffee has a 10 hour half-life if you're healthy. Unless you're pregnant. See wikipedia or other sources.
Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by iamelgringo on Saturday May 31, 2008 @09:03AM (#205235)
It's what his sleep specialist told him, and it's what my sleep MD told me as well. I'd certainly believe what an MD with 12-15 years of education/residency says over wikipedia.

People can build up a tolerance to caffeine by saturating the receptors in the brain that are activated by caffeine. So, after month of daily ingestion, some people can drink 4-8 cups of coffee a day and not have any problems. In this case, it's especially true that your mileage may vary greatly.

I used to be a caffeine fiend. But, when I started having sleep problems, I had to completely quit caffeine, and it does help. I could drink 2-3 triple espresso's in an all-nighter and then sleep like a baby when I was in college. Now, I drink 1/2 a cup of coffee and I'm buzzed for hours, and I don't sleep well that night.

Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by ericb on Saturday May 31, 2008 @09:56AM (#205251)
If the 10 hour half-life were true, we'd all be Cornholio by now. A 10 hour half life means at 30 hours, you'd still have 12.5% of the caffeine in your system and at 40 hours you'd have 6.25%. I'd have coffee in me from the last week still in effect. Is there some other half life term I'm not familiar with?

In this regard, I'd go with wikipedia. There are plenty of doctors who are wrong in the world--they are only human.

Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by gojomo on Saturday May 31, 2008 @11:39AM (#205275)
"Half-life" by biological elimination is not precisely exponential as with radioactive decay, and may trend closer to a linear process -- as in, your liver can eliminate X units per hour, not X% of however much you've had.

Thus the (informal) "half life" of one cup of coffee could be 4 hours, but two cups could be 8 hours, and so on.

(To the extent I can track the estimates of "3.5 to 6" or "5.7" hours of caffeine half-life back to original sources, it looks like the studies were done in 1978 and 1980. Maybe modern caffeine consumption has moved to a level where linear rather than exponential elimination dominates?)

Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by icky on Sunday June 01, 2008 @04:45AM (#205768)
> "Half-life" by biological elimination is not precisely exponential as with radioactive decay, and may trend closer to a linear process -- as in, your liver can eliminate X units per hour, not X% of however much you've had.

Damn. I was hoping to calculate the optimal hour for a caffeine "booster" after the initial morning fix.

Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by DenisM on Saturday May 31, 2008 @11:35AM (#205273)
And what makes you think you don't have 6.25% after 40 hours? When I stop consuming caffeine it takes couple of days for the effect to wear off. Did it twice so far - I'm ususally off caffeine but let it slide during vacations.
Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by mynameishere on Saturday May 31, 2008 @11:26AM (#205269)
I can't believe anyone would take a "sleep specialist" seriously in the first place. What's the education path to that profession?

Looks like about 5 hours:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=caffeine+half+life+...

Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by iamelgringo on Monday June 02, 2008 @11:16AM (#206789)
Sleep Medicine is actually a sub-specialty of Pulmonary Medicine. So, to become a Pulmonologist/Sleep specialist, you need to have 4 years Pre-Med, 4 years Med school, 3-4 years of Internal Medicine Residency. After that, you have to apply to become a Pulmonologist, which is rather competitive. Regardless, it's a two year fellowship in pulmonary medicine, which means that you're the defacto king of the ICU for 2 years. Sometimes, pulmonologists take an extra one year to study sleep medicine.

So, on average, your sleep specialists have about 13-15 years of schooling. It's about the same ammount of time that it would take to become a Plastic surgeon, or Interventional Cardiologist, Cardiothoracic Surgeon of Invasive Radiologist.

It's not a light weight course of study. Certainly not 4 hours worth.

Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by LogicHoleFlaw on Saturday May 31, 2008 @04:36PM (#205407)
In my case the specialists I saw were at the Sleep Medicine and Research Center in St. Louis, MO. The presiding doctors there are James K. Walsh, Ph.D., and Gihan Kader, M.D.

Dr. Walsh in particular is a professor at the nearby St. Louis University. If you do a search on Medline for Dr. Walsh you will see that he is active and published with studies on sleep disorders.

http://www.stlukes-stl.com/services/sleep_medicine/research_...

Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by mynameishere on Saturday May 31, 2008 @08:49PM (#205534)
Great. So how do you explain the fact that these wonderful specialists got the half-life of caffeine so completely wrong?
Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by rms on Saturday May 31, 2008 @05:05AM (#205185)
Did you ever try regular melatonin?
Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by LogicHoleFlaw on Saturday May 31, 2008 @05:19AM (#205189)
I did not. I would if I did not have easy access to the Rozerem. Over-the-counter melatonin is not regulated by the FDA and is of wildly varying quality. The advantage of the synthesized capsule is that the dosage is consistent and effective.
Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by jganetsk on Saturday May 31, 2008 @01:54PM (#205327)
Yes, OTC Melatonin is not regulated by the FDA, mainly due to the lack of studies on its long-term effects.

If you were going to try it, go for a low dose. Try 300 micrograms [1]. Most stores sell a minimum dose of 1 milligram, but you can find the lower dose stuff on Amazon.

1. http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2005/melatonin.html

Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by deathbyzen on Saturday May 31, 2008 @08:02AM (#205222)
I would avoid melatonin as regular use can disrupt the natural release of it in the body, i.e. take too many pills and your body stops producing can stop producing it permanently.

Source: My cousin... he's a nurse, so maybe take my advice with a grain of salt.

Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by LogicHoleFlaw on Saturday May 31, 2008 @04:04PM (#205390)
Right. I can only recommend it for someone who has an actual melatonin deficiency. People with healthy melatonin systems take on only risks and gain no benefit from the additional melatonin.
Re:Ask HN: how did you fix problems with bad sleep? by rms on Saturday May 31, 2008 @07:49PM (#205507)
Melatonin in higher doses (the 3mg pills commonly sold OTC) causes incredibly vivid dreaming. So that is one entertaining side effect.