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Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by grandalf on Tuesday December 28, 2010 @11:48PM (#2047941)
There are allegations against Assange that he can't refute w/o the chat logs. That's my point. Wired got up in arms after a few accusations it didn't like.
Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by tptacek on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:01AM (#2047963)
"A few accusations it didn't like", including:

* That Kevin Poulsen was untrustworthy because he'd been caught hacking in 1990.

* That Wired had helped orchestrate Manning's arrest (Lamo turned Manning in; Lamo doesn't work for Wired).

* That Wired is being unprofessional by not releasing complete private chat transcripts, while other news outlets are being unprofessional for releasing too much private information about Wikileaks supporters.

* That Wired had refused to respond to Greenwald's request when that request was in fact issued with a 24 hour deadline on Christmas day.

* That Wired had concealed material details of the supposed Manning leaks when in fact the details they were alleged to have concealed were in fact referenced directly in the the chat logs they released.

* That Wired is responsible for Manning/Lamo/Assange stories they themselves didn't report on.

* That Poulsen is Lamo's "personal media voice" despite the fact that Lamo received significantly more coverage outside SecurityFocus (Poulsen didn't meet Lamo while working at Wired) than in it.

* That Mark Rasch prosecuted Poulsen for computer hacking when in fact he left federal government service in 1991, before Poulsen was tried (by two unrelated state prosecutors).

* That all the time Greenwald accused Wired of bias, he was using Jacob Applebaum (Wikileaks' US spokesperson) as a primary source without disclosing the affiliation, was privately trying to hire an attorney for Manning, and was carrying on daily off-the-record conversations with Assange.

Yeah, I can see how Wired might "get up in arms" about this.

Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by intended on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:50AM (#2048067)
Greenwald has been talking about this since Manning got arrested, this is not the first article he has written about Wired.

One of the issues Greenwald brings up is that the logs are the only evidence to understand what happened in the Manning case.

Greenwald that Lamo makes statements to the press, regarding his interactions with Manning. He points out that some statements made have even contradicted themselves.

The only evidence are the chat logs themselves, which are not available.

Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by tptacek on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:53AM (#2048071)
I think we can all see how much more straightforward Greenwald's job would be if he had all the chat transcripts, but their release is Wired's prerogative, not his.
Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by OpieCunningham on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:25AM (#2048014)
That Wired is being unprofessional by not releasing complete private chat transcripts, while other news outlets are being unprofessional for releasing too much private information about Wikileaks supporters.

I know that's essentially paraphrased from Wireds response, like everything else you called out - but is that actually what Greenwald has done? What I've seen is two fold:

1- Greenwald calling out news organizations for presenting Assanges displeasure at his own privacy breaches as hypocrisy when it actually isn't hypocrisy for a democratic govt to have limited privacy and an individual to have maximum privacy.

2- Assange calling out the Swedish govt for leaking information about the case when the govts own laws dictate that the information remain private.

So although Wired eloquently said one thing, and you helpfully repeated it, is it even true? I haven't seen it, perhaps you could provide a link to Greenwald where he said it. And maybe there are a few more items on your cheerleading list that would be better served with some citations.

Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by tptacek on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:32AM (#2048030)
It's not "my" cheerleading list; it's distilled contents of the two official responses. If you disagree with them, you disagree with the article.

I believe Poulsen more than I believe Greenwald, but that's neither here nor there. Unless you think I've misrepresented the article, leave me out of it.

Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by OpieCunningham on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:48AM (#2048060)
Wasn't clear to me in what you wrote that you were attempting to objectively summarize the article.

You missed at least one other, that part where Poulsen "refuted" Greenwalds accusation that Poulsen notified the NYTimes re: Lamos breach and then wrote an article about it by correcting Greenwald in that Poulsen actually notified the NYTimes about Lamos breach and then wrote an article about it ... with a quote from the NYTimes.

Thanks for your summary, though.

Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by tptacek on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:52AM (#2048069)
I also left out that Mark Rasch wasn't actually a bona fide Wired contributor, and I'm sure a bunch of other stuff. I was responding to 'grandalf's insinuation that Wired was having a nitpicked temper tantrum, when in fact they were condemned publicly in Salon for serious journalistic ethics lapses.
Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by cma on Tuesday December 28, 2010 @11:55PM (#2047954)
They clearly stated that Lamo's recent allegations were included in the chat logs, and that the NYT piece that Glenn quoted got that wrong.
Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by grandalf on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:02AM (#2047968)
How do we know this w/o the full text of the logs?
Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by tptacek on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:05AM (#2047974)
Easy. You take the logs that Wired did release, and the information that Greenwald claims wasn't in there that was documented outside Wired, and you see if they're in there. Wired just went on the record saying they are. Go refute the claim.
Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by cma on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:12AM (#2047993)
We don't; how do I know you aren't payed by the government to say this unless right now you disclose all of your bank account credentials so I can check? (/sarcasm)

Greenwald's piece was predicated on new information coming to light (Lamo's recent allegations) that showed there was missing details in the chat logs that were material to the case. Wired refuted this; I just looked at the logs again and their refutation makes sense to me.

Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by grandalf on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:29AM (#2048020)
Ok, so if the chat logs are eventually revealed and they contain information relevant to the accusations against Assange, then you will reverse your opinion?
Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by cma on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:59AM (#2048082)
I'd gladly reverse my view on Wired in that case; I won't reverse my view on Greenwald's article; the information he used to back his argument doesn't make sense. If the conclusion ends up being correct, the argument still will have been bogus.
Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by Bud on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:13AM (#2047996)
Tp: Uh, I think I'd rather just see the chat logs. Seems to me the Wired piece is long on unrelated attacks on Greenwald, and short on a lot of other things, like a convincing explanation of why they won't release the logs.
Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by tptacek on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:17AM (#2048003)
Who wouldn't want the chat logs? I'm sure they're a lot more fun to read than Wired's summary of what's in the chat logs. What's your point?

It is not interesting or insightful to point out that everyone wants the chat logs and will not be satisfied with anything but the chat logs. Yes. You are on record: you demand the chat logs. It is clearly obvious that you would want the chat logs.

Wired says: no. They gave their reasons.

You are not going to agree with any of those reasons, because you want to read the chat logs, and you are a commenter on a nerd message board and as such you see all those reasons as a logical system to be gamed to achieve the outcome you desire. I don't blame you because I too am commenting on a nerd message board. But: be self aware about it.

Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by Bud on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @01:26PM (#2049632)
I don't think it's necessary for you to post personal attacks or personalize the issue. I think Greenwald's response today makes it amply clear why a reasonable person would want more of the chat logs, or at least some full commentary by Wired on the chat logs. To wit: Lamo has made various public statements about what Manning supposedly said, in those logs. Wired has refused to substantiate those statements by posting relevant excerpts, or to comment on why they refuse. This objection, which is obviously not mine alone and has nothing to do with gaming this system or nerd message boards and is in fact a serious issue, also has nothing to do with any protection of privacy or embarrassing content that might also be present in those chat logs.

You might think it's not interesting to demand that the substantive issues raised by Wired's very selective posting of those logs be resolved. That doesn't make it so, and neither do personal attacks. Please note that I've refrained from attacking you.

Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by grandalf on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:37AM (#2048040)
I think the issue is that Wired doesn't really come across as trustworthy and very well might be withholding relevant information. There are still a few somewhat fishy aspects to the story.
Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by tptacek on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:41AM (#2048051)
There's nothing they can reasonably do to not be "fishy" to WL supporters. Releasing the chat transcripts no more gets Wired out of the Lamo/Poulsen quandary than releasing the physical hard copy birth certificate gets Obama out of the birther quandary.

People should just admit it. They don't want the chat logs because it will make them believe Wired more. They want the chat logs because the chat logs are fun drama. It doesn't make you a bad person to concede that; it just makes you a human being.

Re:Wired's Response to Glenn Greenwald (re:Lamo-Manning Chat... by grandalf on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @12:45AM (#2048055)
Hah. I really don't care about the personal drama in the logs. I mostly want to see where Assange stands at this point with respect to evidence (aside from potential testimony by Manning) that he violated the espionage act.