News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by kediz on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:11PM (#20473956)
I heard he purchased a bunch of real estate and then lease them to WeWork and made a killing.

Maybe he would later sell those real estates whose price have been inflated because of WeWork's presence.

It is indeed a real estate company.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by robocat on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:26PM (#20474072)
"WeWork is a weird company because it is a real estate company that thinks it’s a tech startup; it seems to have the culture and New-Age-y patter and grandiose ambition and valuation of a tech company. But what if, deep down in its heart, it really is a real estate company?"

"Multiple investors of the privately held company said the arrangement concerned them as a potential conflict of interest in which the CEO could benefit on rents or other terms with the company."

Mr. Neumann "is WeWork’s largest individual shareholder and has voting control over the company, so it is not clear that the board can say no."

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinion/articles/2019-01-16/we...

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by codetrotter on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:07PM (#20474848)
> "WeWork is a weird company because it is a real estate company that thinks it’s a tech startup; [...]"

This quote reminds me of something that was said in the movie The Founder (2016).

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4276820/

(Spoiler alert, possibly.)

“You’re not in the hamburger business. You’re in the real estate business.”

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by jackweirdy on Thursday July 18, 2019 @10:22PM (#20475713)
That movie had some excellent scenes demonstrating systems thinking, particularly the idea of optimising parts a system to improve the productivity of its whole
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by dmix on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:04PM (#20474831)
It’s rare to find a founder being the one who is fleecing the investors instead of the other way around.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by phamilton on Thursday July 18, 2019 @08:20PM (#20475223)
Not that rare. Ignoring cases like fraud (old ones - Enron, WorldCom and new cases like Theranos) there's still plenty of things like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17239361
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by dmix on Thursday July 18, 2019 @08:36PM (#20475310)
It’s still rare, that’s why Domo and Theranos have so much controversy. ‘Unicorns’ themselves aren’t even that common.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by Nerada on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:57PM (#20474767)
Levine does some really great working breaking down a lot of these current events.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by barce on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:35PM (#20474604)
I totally respect what they've done to build such a large company. But tbh, they've never built any tech. My guess is they had such a hard time building the systems they needed that they acquired Meetup.com to address those needs. So deep down, tech-wise, it's really just Meetup.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by toasterlovin on Friday July 19, 2019 @12:00AM (#20476064)
And Meetup is a shit show, technically. Most of their features don’t work or haven’t been updated in years. Their iOS app require a superstitious pigeon dance to make the notification badge on the app icon go away. Etc, etc.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by Waterluvian on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:09PM (#20474411)
I might sound super ignorant. But isn't this standard business style for the former soviet nations? It seems unsurprising to me to see a complete capitalization of the opportunity in every legal or legally gray way. Ie. The long game is super risky. Take everything that isn't bolted down while you still can.

Maybe these things are exactly what happen everywhere and I'm just applying a perception of corruption-as-usual.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by consumer451 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:29PM (#20474561)
I agree with your assessment. This may be have always been the norm in the USA as well, my naivete maybe be showing here, but this absolutely feels like self-dealing[0]. This seems unethical at the very least. This is the kind of thing that we made nihilistic jokes about in my former home, a Soviet satellite nation.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-dealing

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by H8crilA on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:34PM (#20474597)
Yeah, the big question is why would Masayoshi Son bankroll a super overpriced REIT-like company. That dude is not your random retail investor that couldn't see it for what it is.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by MegaButts on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:03PM (#20474821)
In my opinion, SoftBank is a below average VC firm (I used to work for one of their companies and was actually a fly on the wall for some of the strategic fundraising conversations). They just have way more money than everyone else, which is important. But I'm pretty sure they're going to lose money in aggregate. Don't forget this guy famously lost more money than anyone in history.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/10/how-s...

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by H8crilA on Thursday July 18, 2019 @08:02PM (#20475144)
SoftBank is something in between a VC and the public market. Typical startup path: seed funding, a few VC rounds, SoftBank round, IPO.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by MegaButts on Friday July 19, 2019 @04:35PM (#20482226)
My point is SoftBank is dumb money, and I believe in 10 years they will be a business case on one of the worst money management programs in history.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by KaoruAoiShiho on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:53PM (#20475104)
Can you talk about in general terms what you heard that makes you think SoftBank isn't that good at what they do?
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by MegaButts on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:01PM (#20475866)
The company I worked at was a clusterfuck, to put it mildly. It was going to shut down (this is not public knowledge, and very few of the employees are aware of this) before SoftBank injected a stupid amount of capital into it. I fully understand VC portfolios are about the aggregate, but I do not see how a competent firm could possibly see that as anything other than a waste of money.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by vikramkr on Thursday July 18, 2019 @08:48PM (#20475360)
When you have that much cash and are expected to deploy it into venture capital, its almost bgg impossible to not put it into companies like wework. You need hugely overvalued companies. You cant sit in your money because your investors (sovereign wealth funds etc) demand to see their money put to work, and you cant invest in strong seed stage companies because they don't move the needle. It means they almost have less power here since they absolutely deploy capital, and Son does not have the sort of goodwill from partners that someone like Buffet has to sit on a giant pile of cash until good investment opportunities emerge.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by H8crilA on Thursday July 18, 2019 @09:50PM (#20475597)
> Son does not have the sort of goodwill from partners that someone like Buffet has to sit on a giant pile of cash until good investment opportunities emerge.

That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

But yeah, big money doesn't have to be very smart, in principle. Like this pitch, 45 minutes for $45B dollars from the Saudi prince: https://www.economist.com/business/2019/03/23/masayoshi-son-...

This article has another good quote:

> The stockmarket, for its part, values SoftBank itself at a steep discount to the sum of its listed constituents (see chart 1), despite a $5.5bn share buy-back in February. Worries that Mr Son is paying over the odds are thought to be a big factor. Take WeWork: when Mr Son slashed his investment to $2bn, SoftBank’s shares leapt by 6%.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by vikramkr on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:08PM (#20475895)
I definitely think that it is a recipie for disaster. Son already lost the most money if any person ever. He's the most qualified person I can think of to do it again.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by gibybo on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:29PM (#20474098)
Do the investors in WeWork just allow him to do this? Did he hide it from them? This seems like an obvious self-dealing situation any experienced investor would be watching out for.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by ergothus on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:18PM (#20474468)
Do investors care? If WeWork succeeds, he can cut into the profits, but it also means he's invested in the company succeeding.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by evrydayhustling on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:51PM (#20474732)
It means precisely that he is not invested in the company succeeding - he makes money either way and can make more by overcharging the company.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by usbseeker on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:40PM (#20474187)
Is he leasing them the properties at fair market rates? If so he might be preventing gouging by not forcing we work to bid against the rest of the market.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by Traster on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:58PM (#20474313)
If it were strategically important for the company the company should have bought the properties. It's a direct conflict of interest - and one that has been serious enough that they've ended up having to build an entire corporate strategy to deal with. Also, this is not the only conflict of interest: WeWork bought part of an artificial surfing wave pool in 2016 and the only reason anyone can find to do that is the CEO likes surfing.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by sprafa on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:49PM (#20475086)
If this is true then I’m increasingly surprised at how bad VC returns must be for them to think this is a good investment.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by maxerickson on Thursday July 18, 2019 @08:30PM (#20475279)
It's perhaps the other way around. VC returns are so good that they can make lots of mistakes.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by rficcaglia on Friday July 19, 2019 @12:53AM (#20476267)
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by YayamiOmate on Friday July 19, 2019 @03:46AM (#20476887)
It reminds me of the movie about McDondals start. Not the same mechanism but similiar modus operandi.

It seemed even more ingenious/mischeviois, because in exchange for franchise deal they leased land to franchisers, not even the parent company. So they didn't milk their company.

Im not sure if thats the whole of mcd corporation income structure, but the movie hinged on this one.

Hope I didnt spoil too much, there's more to the picture anyways.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by elamje on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:18PM (#20474009)
I would like to see a source for this because I heard the same thing, but don’t want to spread disinformation.

If it’s true, that’s not a good look for him or the company.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by ceejayoz on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:21PM (#20474034)
https://www.wsj.com/articles/weworks-ceo-makes-millions-as-l...

> One of the landlords behind the building was no ordinary owner: It was Adam Neumann, WeWork’s chief executive, who leased the property to WeWork after buying it, according to people familiar with the situation.

> Mr. Neumann has made millions of dollars by leasing multiple properties in which he has an ownership stake back to WeWork, one of the country’s most valuable startups. Multiple investors of the privately held company said the arrangement concerned them as a potential conflict of interest in which the CEO could benefit on rents or other terms with the company.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by baby on Thursday July 18, 2019 @08:43PM (#20475339)
So he found a way to make money by buying a few places and renting it to his company. A lot of CEOs seem to find similar tricks. Does it mean that he is the landlord of all the locations of wework? No. Does it mean wework is a real estate company? Certainly not if they are only renting.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by elamje on Thursday July 18, 2019 @11:06PM (#20475881)
I would be interested to see if Jamie Dimon or Jeff Bezos could slip by owning a JP Morgan office building or Amazon warehouse, respectively. You pass it off like it is the norm. If it is normal, please cite several examples that come to mind. The examples cannot include private companies where the CEO is the 100% owner.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by fuzz4lyfe on Thursday July 18, 2019 @08:55PM (#20475384)
If they are only renting then they are a real estate company without any real estate.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by mjcl on Friday July 19, 2019 @12:55PM (#20480355)
That’s called a property management company.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by debt on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:38PM (#20474171)
"I heard he purchased a bunch of real estate and then lease them to WeWork and made a killing."

Clearly an ethical guy we're dealing with here. I'm sure this will all pan out well down the road.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by dnh44 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @08:51PM (#20475371)
At least in the UK, this would not be considered unethical I don’t think.

It’s standard practice to buy a building personally and rent it back to your own company. It’s what accountants recommend you do.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by toasterlovin on Friday July 19, 2019 @12:05AM (#20476082)
That’s fine if you’re the sole owner of your company, but not so much when there are other owners who have collectively invested billions.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by youngtaff on Saturday July 20, 2019 @06:00AM (#20484916)
That's generally for relatively small businesses, particularly family owned ones - often the premises are owned by the company pension scheme, which is both tax efficient and allows the wealth to be passed onto future generations

It's also not unusual for some larger companies to have their head office owned by the founder / majority shareholder in a separate company, Monsoon and Arcadia in the UK are two examples of this

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by sprafa on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:51PM (#20475093)
Heheh coughUber*cough

Seriously where’s the vetting VCs are supposed to be doing? Used to be you had to hustle AND have a good idea to have a VC ready company. Now it seems like all you need to do is hustle and be in the tight geographical location (Sillicon Valley) and you will get money for stupid things like this damned Coworking company with free beers.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by Tiktaalik on Friday July 19, 2019 @01:13PM (#20480532)
The CEO of Hootsuite did this too.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by nickfromseattle on Friday July 19, 2019 @05:13PM (#20482494)
Can you please clarify / expand? The CEO of Hootsuite did what? How?
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by Tiktaalik on Sunday July 21, 2019 @06:45PM (#20494146)
Hootsuite's CEO bought a block of land where Hootsuite was in partnership with a real estate developer, then got it beneficially upzoned for 'tech' and is now building a tech campus on it.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/vancou...

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by diafygi on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:19PM (#20474020)
Isn't this exactly how McDonald's did it?
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by elamje on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:30PM (#20474106)
To some extent this makes sense for a franchise. It allows McDonalds to use it’s real estate expertise to negotiate the best possible deal, then pass on the deal to the franchisee. If this wasn’t the case, every franchisee would have to become a real estate expert just to open a restaurant.

In the case of WeWork, this isn’t a franchise, WeWork has the ability to own the property outright and lease it out. The CEO owning the property effectively guarantees him a good return on his investment and his rent profit goes into his pocket while WeWork the company passes him the profit.

If there are holes in the logic please elaborate. That is the best I can compare the two.

I’m sure McDonald’s makes a bit of profit off of leasing to a franchisee, although I can’t say. In the case of McDonald’s it seems it is providing a valuable service to a franchisee. No need for a franchisee to try to negotiate property deals, nor put up real estate capital to own the land. McDonalds is effectively cutting out a 3rd Party landowner middleman that could arbitrarily raise rent once the restaurant is opened.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by joezydeco on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:23PM (#20474520)
When McDonalds is the landlord it also gives them the power to evict the franchisee if they are not following the franchise rules.

Compare to Subway, which also franchises but doesn’t lease property, to see what difference that makes.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by reneherse on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:09PM (#20474861)
Subway has other ways of getting rid of people when it suits them. There was an article posted here recently about the underhanded methods Subway regional managers have used to shut down competing franchisees within their territories. [1]

McDonalds is a much stronger company just based on their ownership of some of the most valuable real estate across the USA.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20307988

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by elamje on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:41PM (#20474658)
So is Subway the good guy or the bad guy in your comparison? I can’t tell based on your phrasing.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by servercobra on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:07PM (#20474853)
I'm not sure there's a good guy or bad guy, but anecdotally, I've been in a lot more poorly-run Subways than poorly-run McDonalds, which is maybe the point the OP is getting at?
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by trimbo on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:36PM (#20474150)
Did Ray Kroc personally own any of the real estate McDonald's was leasing to franchisees?
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by kgwgk on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:25PM (#20474057)
How does the analogy "WeWork Founder" ~ "McDonald's Corporation" work precisely?
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by reallydude on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:45PM (#20474689)
Ray Kroc is analogous to Adam Neumann.

They both expanded a marginally profitable (and hard to grow) business by expanding a few locations than leveraging the capital to buy real-estate, which allowed them to stop caring about the original and individual franchised business success. Using the massive income of being commercial property landlords, even if the franchises failed, they had revenue growth. Now that Kroc is gone, the reference to McDonald's as a corporation is convenient, since the history is understood and available.

The movie "The Founder" might clear things up.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by adventured on Friday July 19, 2019 @02:05AM (#20476508)
> The movie "The Founder" might clear things up.

The movie The Founder is mostly fake. It's unlikely to clear much up.

http://rayandjoan.com/the-founder/

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by kgwgk on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:54PM (#20474745)
Did Kroc leased his own real estate to the company he managed? I don’t think so, but I could be wrong.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by lkschubert8 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @08:43PM (#20475341)
From what I understand he purchased real estate and then leased it to the franchisees.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by reallydude on Thursday July 18, 2019 @10:05PM (#20475660)
https://money.howstuffworks.com/mcdonalds2.htm

Just googling the history, so you can understand what happened, is a minimum when having a discussion about history. Whoever went so far as to wasting a point downmodding me, didn't even do that.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by kgwgk on Friday July 19, 2019 @02:23AM (#20476556)
Please help me understand what happened.

Who owned the real estate? Ray Kroc?

According to https://www.moaf.org/publications-collections/financial-hist... Franchise Realty Corp was owned by McDonald’s.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by reallydude on Friday July 19, 2019 @12:28PM (#20480029)
> Who owned the real estate? Ray Kroc?

From wikipedia: At the closing table, Kroc became annoyed that the brothers would not transfer to him the real estate and rights to the original San Bernardino location

Regardless of the legal agreements, the intent was the same. Since the beginning of this thread, it looks like nitpicking to avoid concession, so you can believe what you want. GL with that.

To recap, history. Ray Kroc is analogous to Adam Neumann. 2 founders who leveraged real-estate over the initial franchise business. Substituting McDonald's in name for Ray Kroc is a matter of a temporal situation (or laziness).

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by kgwgk on Friday July 19, 2019 @01:25PM (#20480660)
Ray Kroc, who controlled McDonald’s, set up a scheme where one part of McDonald’s bought real estate and leased it to another part of McDonald’s (which in turn leased it to franchisees). That’s my understanding at least, it seems you don’t dispute it. The intent was for the company to benefit.

Adam Neumann, who controls WeWork, set up a scheme where Adam Neumann and relatives bought real estate and leased it to WeWork (no franchise model in this case, by the way). The intent was for Adam Neumann to benefit. The analogy is flawed and misleading, the conflict of interests is evident and this anomalous situation is being corrected.

A much better analogy to what McDonald’s did in the beginning is what WeWork intends to do now: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-05-15/wework-wa...

“WeWork is creating an investment fund that aims to raise billions of dollars to buy stakes in buildings where it will be a major tenant”

(Still, it’s not exactly the same, I think, as it will be a fund partially owned by WeWork and partially by external investors; I don’t fully understand what was the structure for Franchise Realty but as far as I understand external investors provided loans to that corporation.)

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by auggierose on Thursday July 18, 2019 @06:11PM (#20474415)
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by pathseeker on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:13PM (#20474896)
Nope, it's not the same at all. Wework is the corporation and it's leasing from the founder. McDonald's is the corporation and it leases out to franchisees.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by auggierose on Friday July 19, 2019 @02:38AM (#20476608)
Watch the movie, you obviously haven't.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by mercutio2 on Friday July 19, 2019 @11:03AM (#20479198)
I have seen the (largely fictitious) movie.

It is not in the movie (which, again, is largely fictitious) that Ray Kroc took personal ownership of properties, and benefitted personally from the corporation he controlled (not counting the above-board appreciation-of-the-overall-corporation, which of course he benefitted from, but capitalists mostly don’t argue with this).

There was an intermediary acting as the owner, and there are no franchisees in WeWork’s case.

WeWork is vastly, vastly more sketchy.

Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by Topgamer7 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:22PM (#20474035)
Yes I've heard this too. The franchise agreement states that you are behest to wherever McDonald's decides to let you lease. Unable to corroborate though.
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by mabbo on Thursday July 18, 2019 @05:36PM (#20474151)
McDonald's buys land then says "If you want to run a McDonald's you must rent from us".
Re:WeWork Co-Founder Has Cashed Out at Least $700M Via Sales... by empath75 on Thursday July 18, 2019 @07:26PM (#20474974)
That’s a lot different from the ceo personally self-dealing.