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Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by bko on Thursday July 11, 2019 @12:46PM (#20413067)
> All money made on the white market in any country is facilitated by that government, and taxes are paid on all profits to pay for the services which allowed the profit to be made.

So any taxation is justified?

> It's not arbitrary to expect businesses to pay for services they benefit from.

Any digital company with revenue of more than €750m ($850m; £670m) - of which at least €25m is generated in France - would be subject to the levy.

That sounds arbitrary.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by ineedasername on Thursday July 11, 2019 @02:26PM (#20414053)
>so any type of tax is justified?

That's a straw man. You're leaping from "some type of tax is justified" which is quite a bit more reasonable than "any tax".

And if you want to say it's a slippery slope or some such, well, ever single action if extrapolated to the extreme can be a viewed as such. If 3% is reasonable and then it's proposed to goes up and up, fight the increase, not the initial reasonable action. Of course this may be putting words in your mouth, so I won't attribute it to you, only that I preempt a logical counter to mine.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by uasm on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:24PM (#20415444)
> "That's a straw man."

No, it isn't.

Road tax pays for road maintenance. Municipal tax pays for municipal maintenance. VAT and Income Tax pay for government expenditure. Taxes are collected in exchange for a service.

Foreign businesses providing entirely digital services in France aren't actually receiving any kind of service back from the French government. In other words, this specific tax is just a mechanism for collecting money arbitrarily in exchange for nothing.

That's a slippery slope.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by aplummer on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:31PM (#20415505)
> Foreign businesses providing entirely digital services in France aren't actually receiving any kind of service back from the French government. In other words, this specific tax is just a mechanism for collecting money arbitrarily in exchange for nothing.

You've just ignored all the above posts without addressing them. The other posts make it clear without any counter argument from you that government provides a safe and stable addressable market to do business (and literally the currency).

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by zaroth on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:39PM (#20415602)
That argument reduces down to “because a market exists” — is that really a compelling justification for this particular additional tax?

Because the dollars being used to pay for the digital good have already been taxed, probably many times over, by the time the credit card transaction settles and the merchant account is credited at the end of the week (or whenever).

It’s reasonable to question if this particular tax was designed in a way to target specific foreign companies, without a compelling nexus, which would make the tax predatory.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by alwayseasy on Thursday July 11, 2019 @05:34PM (#20416085)
No government, no juicy market. Also > the merchant account is credited at the end of the week (or whenever).

Amazon doesn't pay taxes when they're the merchant.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by uasm on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:48PM (#20415676)
> The other posts make it clear without any counter argument from you that government provides a safe and stable addressable market to do business (and literally the currency).

How does a government quantify providing "a safe and stable addressable market to do business"? What was the formula used to determine the tax bracket?

Unless we have a clear formula we can reason about, the tax would be arbitrary. Is that not the case?

Moreover, shouldn't the cost of providing "a safe and stable addressable market to do business" be a constant? We know how many French citizens utilize the service, and we should also (somehow) have the overall costs of "keeping the French market afloat". If so, why does the government tax a percentage of the total revenues?

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by michaelt on Thursday July 11, 2019 @06:02PM (#20416302)
Of course tax is arbitrary. Just look at the chicken tax [1] which despite its name, is a tax on light trucks - unless they're shipped to the US with extra seats which the dealer removes before the truck is sold.

If you're looking for a simple and logically designed system, the international tax system isn't it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by harperlee on Thursday July 11, 2019 @06:07PM (#20416337)
In spanish we have two different words: tasa is what you are describing: a tasa is imposed to pay for a specific thing. Whereas an impuesto is a different thing that is simply put in a common account to pay for everything that is public, in whatever way the government sees fit. No need to link source and destination.

Think of it backwards: if we agree that X level of taxes need to be gathered to maintain common good, the government needs to gather it in the least unjust way possible. Taxing internet giants, to europeans, seem mostly just.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by ldng on Thursday July 11, 2019 @07:37PM (#20416873)
They do use communication networks and, in the case of Amazon, actual roads.
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by sverige on Thursday July 11, 2019 @02:45PM (#20414238)
All taxes are a slippery slope. Name one that has ever been repealed. Income tax in the U.S. started out as a modest 3% on only the highest incomes and look where that has ended up: full on wealth redistribution.

We can argue whether that's a good thing or not, but not whether there's a slippery slope when it comes to implementing a new tax.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by Marsymars on Thursday July 11, 2019 @06:56PM (#20416653)
> Name one that has ever been repealed.

Taxes get repealed all the time. My province just repealed its carbon tax a few weeks ago: https://www.alberta.ca/carbon-tax-repeal.aspx

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by oblio on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:16PM (#20415360)
Tithe.

And even if I couldn't name a tax that was repealed, many are way lower than in the past.

Peasants would rebel because they'd be taxed to (literal!) death.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by NeedMoreTea on Thursday July 11, 2019 @07:01PM (#20416687)
It's an easy question, have three.

Window tax. 1990s UK Poll tax. The luxury tax token system the US used before sales taxes.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by corneliusphi1 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @03:41PM (#20414985)
In 1944 the highest US tax bracket was 94%
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by mc32 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:22PM (#20415412)
How many people actually paid that top rate? Or was that on paper only?
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by fuzz4lyfe on Thursday July 11, 2019 @08:21PM (#20417087)
I'd happily go back to the effective rate of tax in 1944 if you are so willing.
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by greycol on Thursday July 11, 2019 @09:57PM (#20417486)
If we're being facetious then I'm sure there will be plenty in France that are willing to compromise even more and go further back and implement the effective tax rate of 1794 on high earners.
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by leetcrew on Thursday July 11, 2019 @03:47PM (#20415074)
GP asked for a tax that was repealed, not reduced.
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by abdullahkhalids on Thursday July 11, 2019 @05:00PM (#20415790)
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by ineedasername on Friday July 12, 2019 @01:27PM (#20422469)
The US just repealed and lowered some taxes a year and a half ago. Look back 4 or 5 decades US incomes taxes were way way way higher. You're simply wrong
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by tomc1985 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @03:40PM (#20414976)
> All taxes are a slippery slope. Name one that has ever been repealed. Income tax in the U.S. started out as a modest 3% on only the highest incomes and look where that has ended up: full on wealth redistribution.

> We can argue whether that's a good thing or not, but not whether there's a slippery slope when it comes to implementing a new tax.

Dude what? Wealth redistribution? Lots of countries have much higher taxes that actually redistribute that wealth. Don't call our system socialist, it isn't. Have you ever lived in socialism (I have)? It isn't even here in California!

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by praptak on Thursday July 11, 2019 @01:51PM (#20413721)
> So any taxation is justified?

A corp will raise prices to whatever level the market will bear. Why shouldn't a society do the same with taxes?

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by CountSessine on Thursday July 11, 2019 @03:28PM (#20414794)
A corp will raise prices to whatever level the market will bear. Why shouldn't a society do the same with taxes?

A corp exists in a competitive market and can rarely raise prices to "whatever level the market will bear". If I don't like their prices, I use their competitor.

What competitor does my mandatory government and it's confiscatory tax agency have? What alternative do I have but to hand over half my work to them to be frittered away on foreign wars and grants for indolence and incompetence?

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by zmk_ on Thursday July 11, 2019 @03:43PM (#20415020)
What competitors will Amazon have in France if all the local competitors cannot escape paying local corporate taxes and Amazons of the word just throw a few millions at lawyers to shop around for the most convenient tax haven.
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by filoleg on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:42PM (#20415622)
Ah yes, it is the lack of this tax that was preventing France from having their next Amazon. I am willing to bet significant amounts of money that even in 10 years France will have nothing even of remote resemblance of what Amazon was back in 2010, not even going to set the bar at what Amazon is today.
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by Hithredin on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:58PM (#20415766)
They are talking about physical shops. Which are also competitors of Amazon. And where does your assessment comes from? Just guess?
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by filoleg on Thursday July 11, 2019 @07:11PM (#20416734)
>They are talking about physical shops. Which are also competitors of Amazon.

Isn't that exactly what VAT tax is for?

>And where does your assessment comes from? Just guess?

An educated guess that I am strongly confident in, to the point of willing to bet most of my savings on it. And I am not the kind of person who would usually bet any money on anything at all. My most risky money bet so far is putting a portion of my paycheck in 401k.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by zmk_ on Friday July 12, 2019 @01:04PM (#20422270)
VAT is a tax on consumption, corporate taxes are on profits (revenues in this case). If Amazon does not have to pay as high corporate taxes due to transfer pricing, then it can offer a lower net (pre-VAT) price so their products end up being cheaper to consumers driving away sales from other retailers. While competition, you may say it is 'unfair' competition.

And yes, this makes it very hard for new businesses to enter the market as they do not have the resources necessary to do tax optimization.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by ldng on Thursday July 11, 2019 @07:41PM (#20416895)
There is a "French Amazon" : cdiscount. They pay there tax in France. Amazon does not. How is it fair to them ?
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by jfk13 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:52PM (#20415716)
I hope you're right. What Amazon is today is a grossly dysfunctional "marketplace", and I hope to see the end of it.
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by hermitdev on Thursday July 11, 2019 @05:45PM (#20416179)
If tax was the burden from a French "Amazon" from founding, they also could easily have a shell in Ireland or Luxembourg. I don't see this at all as France trying to tax Amazon, et all from doing business in France. I see it as a pure money grab. Truly, this isn't really a tax, but more of a tariff. It should be called as such. Maybe it's equally applied against domestic companies and wouldn't be strictly a tariff, but it's intent is most certainly as a tariff.

Edit: I don't work for Amazon, though my brother does. I also don't work at a company that has much of a stake in this fight.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by vorpalhex on Thursday July 11, 2019 @03:20PM (#20414673)
Because it's short sighted to over tax your citizens from both sides?
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by bmelton on Thursday July 11, 2019 @03:25PM (#20414748)
To this extent, countries compete on taxation and value-add for services. Perhaps country A charges more in taxes, but offers more education to its people, and a more educated workforce to hire from, while country B offers fewer of those amenities in exchange for lower taxes.

Inter-country competition helps to keep them honest, and corporations get to choose the luxury of where they operate from and do business out of.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by umeshunni on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:04PM (#20415240)
What's missing is the luxury for individuals to also choose their countries based on the same parameters.
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by vorpalhex on Thursday July 11, 2019 @03:38PM (#20414930)
That's a very thoughtful reply to my off the cuff response. Corporations and people do get to shop both taxes and benefits, but most individuals seem to treat them like a genetic condition.

There's value in competition, because it's about the closest we've been able to get to evolution. The issue comes about when competition is lopsided - I can understand the complaint here from the French, but I don't care at all for their solution.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by i_am_proteus on Thursday July 11, 2019 @01:18PM (#20413405)
'Progressive' taxation (taxing higher individual incomes at higher rates) seemed arbitrary when it was introduced, too.
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by JAlexoid on Thursday July 11, 2019 @02:39PM (#20414176)
> That sounds arbitrary.

Administrative burden limits are not arbitrary. They are used in many places all over the world.

Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by AdrianB1 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @05:05PM (#20415834)
That does not make it not arbitrary, there is no logic in that statement.
Re:France has approved a digital services tax despite threat... by dclowd9901 on Thursday July 11, 2019 @01:35PM (#20413558)
> So any taxation is justified?

Yes. We have income tax in the US. It's the same thing.

Google doesn't have to pay the tax if they're not operating in the country. It says right there that if their revenues are +$25m a year, they are subject to the tax. Conversely, the US can also levy taxes against French digital services, and maybe they should.

My guess is the cost of not operating in France is much higher than the tax to do so, so that would be a silly maneuver.

Tangentially, I find it hilariously hypocritical that the Trump administration is whining about unfair tariffs on digital services.