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Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by tomohawk on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @04:59AM (#20400310)
No conspiracy required when a lot of people are acting according to a common view. People see the real advantages of owning a car and the freedom it brings, and that activity builds industries and has an impact on policies.

Of course, GM really did conspire to put the trolleys out of business.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

However, this is the kind of thing organizations (companies, government agencies, non profits) do when they get to a certain size or have accomplished initial goals and are looking to conquer that next frontier. Just look at the overreach of the SV titans, for example.

For better or worse, we have a car based society now, and pining for the good old days is backwards looking. The next thing should preserve the immense freedom and flexibility that cars brought. Prescribing a top down solution that gives even more power to the state at the expense of the people is a non starter.

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by crispyambulance on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:35AM (#20401335)

    > The next thing should preserve the immense freedom and flexibility that cars brought. 
"Freedom" is a weird word to use for cars. Cities that have been configured for automobile supremacy, actually lack freedom. Every business, every residential area, every road has to be planned and sized to accommodate parking and mobility of cars.

In addition to stimulating sprawl and it's enormous costs, this limits the actual freedom and choices of people who can't or won't drive.

Even ex-burb homeowners whose every trip begins and ends in a parking spot eventually get pissed as the only way for a city to grow is then to pave more and more highways, and spread out in distance making automobile commutes a daily misery literally spanning oceans of asphalt.

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by II2II on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @02:19PM (#20404739)
> The next thing should preserve the immense freedom and flexibility that cars brought.

Did the car bring freedom? A car is expensive for people to purchase, maintain, and operate. In many regions individuals are also compelled to purchase insurance because they are dangerous. They also drive up the cost of living since the expensive infrastructure must be paid through taxation, construction is more expensive because a certain amount of space must be allocated to parking, land is more expensive since infrastructure reduces the supply. The cost of cars pretty much dictates a particular way of living, even before factors such as urban sprawl are even considered.

Perhaps there were elements of freedom and flexibility when the automobile first gained traction, but the social geography mutated. Workplaces became more centralized, then decentralized, as the automobile facilitated large and dedicated zoning regulations. The shifting of workplaces necessitated the shifting of shopping and recreation, typically following patterns of consolidation in a spatial and business sense. With cities no longer being walkable, there were fewer reasons for housing to stay put. It too drifted outwards, often with little consideration to schools and medical care. The end result is that people are often stuck owning a vehicle or making very serious compromises to live without one.

I didn't mean to paint such a bleak picture, and it is likely more harsh than it rightfully deserves to be, but the reality is that the family car (and, later, personal car) ended up being more of a trade-off than a liberator. It is difficult to deny that more is within reach because of it, yet it is also undeniable that less is within immediate reach.

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by dalbasal on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @06:50AM (#20400748)
>>Prescribing a top down solution that gives even more power to the state at the expense of the people is a non starter.

In a certain (much softer) sense, I think this is an example of the type of thinking I was complaining about in the original comment.

I do it myself, most people do it.. especially us "rational" thinkers. But, it is taking a particular and instinctively fitting it into a story that we're used to. Maybe the story is regulatory capture, maybe it's corporatism, overeaching governments and unintended consequences, patriarchy, empire, globalism... Whatever story we're used to refering to.

In any case, I think the next transportation revolution will be related to autonomous vehicles, so this particular conversation is probably moot.. AVs might just dissolve lines between public and private transport. It will, however, probably remain very impacted by both consumer choice and government (generally municipal) choices.

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by salixrosa on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:11PM (#20408243)
Can you give me an example of the immense freedom and flexibility that cars brought?

Can you give me an example that doesn't involve driving to the middle of nowhere, that isn't solved by a good public transportation system, and doesn't involve bringing home large amounts of groceries, or furniture, etc?

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by nec4b on Thursday July 11, 2019 @06:42AM (#20410523)
Daily routine for people who do not live, work and socialize exclusively in the city center. Things like going to work, piking up kids, shopping, visiting other people, having hobbies, outdoor activities, returning borrowed stuff,...
Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by salixrosa on Thursday July 11, 2019 @11:25AM (#20412255)
A city center isn't required for public transportation to be convenient. I've taken public transit through suburbs and tiny towns and out to the countryside.

It just so happens that most of the public transit in the states royally sucks -- even in the city centers.

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by nec4b on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:36PM (#20415565)
It is not a matter of quality. By definition public transport cannot connect all the dots on the map. It is simply impractical or rather impossible. The car gives us freedom of movement that nothing else can currently match. You personal anecdote of taking public transport doesn't invalidate other people use cases and needs, because what works for your situation doesn't necessary work for everyone. If I may use a CS analogy: public transport is like a collection of linked lists and a car is like one giant dictionary. Totally different use cases.
Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by washadjeffmad on Thursday July 11, 2019 @08:04AM (#20410858)
Or has the presumption of car ownership (or indifference to those who without) exacerbated zoning problems, increased prevalence of food deserts, and widened the wealth gap in communities even within cities?
Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by noobermin on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @05:32AM (#20400421)
The reality of the GM streetcar conspiracy is disputed.
Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by taurath on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @05:05AM (#20400327)
I sort of agree - I just wish there were more options, that didn’t have the same tradeoffs on alertness and attention that driving a car has. Self driving vehicles will certainly sell themselves.
Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by joking on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @05:10AM (#20400341)
maybe the trolleys where substituted by the coaches because there were more cheap to use, you don't have to create a network of cables overhead, and with cheap gas there where no need to electrify the public transport.

The coaches have the benefit to be able to go anywhere and modify your routes as suits you, while the trolleys need a fixed infrastructure. Both have their own pros and cons, so i don't see the need for a conspiracy.

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by majewsky on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @05:21AM (#20400379)
As a rough estimate, a streetcar line is more efficient than a bus line above 40,000 passengers per day. My city (Dresden, Germany) has a bus line with 70,000 passengers per day, and you can really see it cracking at the seams. During rush hour, busses run every 3 minutes, and that interval cannot be increased any further because the busses would start blocking each other, thus backing up from the bus stop into the road and creating additional congestion.

The only thing the city can do (and that's what they're working on) is to upgrade from bus to streetcar. Dresden has some of the longest trams in the world, at 45 meters (50 yards), and these carry 3-4 bus loads at once.

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by sokoloff on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @06:31AM (#20400668)
The German bus systems I’ve used have been night and day better than US ones. Buses that mostly run to a schedule are incomprehensible to most in the US.

Probably related, I doubt we have a bus line with anywhere near that ridership.

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by 205guy on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @05:37PM (#20406843)
SF has the notorious 38 Geary that had 55+K daily ridership (boardings) in 2017 [1]. It has many of the problems of an overloaded bus line (traffic causing buses to run together, etc). Oddly, the SF Muni metro lines (what they call the light rail, runs underground downtown but on the street elsewhere) don't seem as congested, but I can't find the ridership numbers.

People have been complaining about the 38 for years, but I don't want to criticize the SFMTA (local agency that runs buses/trolley buses and light rail) because it does seem to get the job done without much expensive investment (cost of most recent underground metro in SF was $1.6B for 1.7 miles [2]).

[1] https://sf.curbed.com/2017/9/19/16302396/sf-worst-bus-transi...

[2] https://www.sfmta.com/projects/central-subway-project

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by kasey_junk on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:46AM (#20401416)
I was curious about this as I’ve never looked into ridership by route and at least for Chicago it is absolutely true. A 70k route would be more than 3x the biggest in Chicago.

https://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/6/Monthly_Ridership_...

Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @10:31AM (#20402291)
At least the red, blue & pink lines exceed 70k/weekday. Which is the point: anything approaching that level should be converted from bus to rail.
Re:Cars took over because the legal system helped squeezed o... by majewsky on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:48AM (#20401430)
To be fair, that 70k route is one of the top 5 routes in Europe by passenger numbers IIRC.