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Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by wayoutthere on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @02:57PM (#20395366)
The whole passenger air travel industry (airlines, aircraft manufacturers, airports, etc) is subsidized because they’re not profitable on their own. But a robust and affordable air travel network is a capability the business world needs to operate our economy.

Boeing and Airbus are two of the most heavily subsidized companies in the world, and the airlines themselves aren’t far behind. They’re both high-risk, low-margin businesses.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by dewey on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @03:06PM (#20395440)
I don't have a source for that but I'd say if the airlines etc wouldn't be so subsidized there would be higher focus on developing better engines, electric planes or other technologies than in the current state where losses will just be covered by the tax payer. They wouldn't just stop operating and the "business world" would most likely not collapse.

I've talked to a bunch of people that get flown around by their company for 2h meetings at airports within Germany every day. If these wouldn't happen and would be done via video conferencing or other means that would be an improvement. Business will find a way to make it work.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by pmart123 on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @06:43PM (#20397480)
As the 737 Max has shown, this isn’t exactly the industry you want to “move fast and break things” by attempting to try out every late and great technology. Then there is just an issue with the business model in general. Customers typically make their purchasing decision on the lowest cost option, things like the weather are out of your control, there’s huge capital investments needed, and there’s a high risk if anything goes wrong.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by wayoutthere on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @03:26PM (#20395623)
This is exactly what has happened — the 787 is the result, and is hugely popular with airlines. But the operational life of a big jet is measured in decades, and there are plenty of 50-year-old airframes in regular operation today.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by somecontext on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @10:02PM (#20398599)
For some context in case anyone is curious: putting together information from various websites suggests that the following is the oldest plane in commercial service today. https://m.planespotters.net/airframe/Boeing/737/5Y-CGV-Zone-...

It is a Boeing 737-200 and it has been in service for 43.7 years.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by TylerE on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @11:03PM (#20398857)
Hardly.

There are still DC-3's in commercial operation, and production of those ended in 1942.

http://www.buffaloairways.com/ is one operator.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by JAlexoid on Friday July 12, 2019 @01:48PM (#20422720)
They don't seem to be a scheduled service operator. They look like a charter airline.

Common definition of a "commercial operation" for airlines is scheduled operation, not charters.

So... That boeing just may be the oldest flying airliner on scheduled routes.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by somecontext on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:56PM (#20407829)
It appears you are correct in this regard and the websites I used are not.

Are there any such planes used for regular scheduled (passenger) airline services? It appears to me that Buffalo Airways is charter and cargo only.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by cheerlessbog on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @01:00AM (#20399252)
They have two Curtiss C-46 from 1945. Its interesting that its cheaper to continue to pay for the maintenance and fuel than lease something more modern.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by TylerE on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @01:24AM (#20399346)
Replacements don’t exist. Those old prop liners can operate off unimproved dirt strips, grass, even snow and ice - and off short runways too.

Jets don’t like that.

For back country missions the only thing maybe better than a DC-3 is a Basler... and that is a modernized DC-3 with reinforcements and turboprops for more power. They suck a lot more fuel than a plain DC3 though, which can be problematic as some of these fields they have to fly fuel in.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by goatinaboat on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:45AM (#20401004)
A C130 should be a viable modern alternative for those use cases, if economic
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by TylerE on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @10:17AM (#20402138)
A fully loaded DC-3 can takeoff in just over 2000ft. A C-130 needs almost 4000ft.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by JAlexoid on Friday July 12, 2019 @02:07PM (#20422932)
There are no small planes that can replace DC-3. C-130 is massive!
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by late2part on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @10:15PM (#20398674)
do you have any idea how many carbon emissions are created with a two hour meeting? The network, the video servers, the laptop/desktops - the monitors, the A/C to cool each of those people at the distributed locations?
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by dasKrokodil on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @03:42AM (#20399927)
While it is valid to bring this up, I'm pretty sure the emissions and energy usage of a videoconference are minuscule in comparison to the flights that are replaced. Laptops will be needed in both cases, as well as A/C (if that is necessary at all).
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by zanmat0 on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:42AM (#20401835)
I'm pretty sure the parent comment was in jest.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by marcosdumay on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @03:14PM (#20395522)
This is funny, because the reason they are not profitable on their own is because they don't need to, since they are subsidized.

Competition makes those companies use any cost-saving they can. If the government takes an option away, they'll just all not use it anymore and settle down on a higher price.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by wayoutthere on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @04:48PM (#20396421)
There’s an element of realpolitik here too: a predictable side effect of ending subsidies for the aerospace industry is that the business would shift to a country that does subsidize. Those companies build a lot of operational knowledge that is super useful — to the point of being a major strategic advantage — in wartime. It also makes you beholden to that country (and subsequent economic sphere of influence) strategically. Governments are responsible for more than just the economy.

Competition between governments is also a thing, and I think we’re already seeing it matter as part of a pullback on globalization with respect to China.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by theturtletalks on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @03:55PM (#20395915)
And, ironically, the same people that want these subsidies argue for less government oversight because the "market will sort itself out."
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by conanbatt on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @04:46PM (#20396403)
Sorry but i have never heard a small government person think there should be airplane subsidies in my life.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by cheerlessbog on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @01:02AM (#20399261)
Many Republicans are in favor of subsidies of industries like Boeing when they are in their district. I expect they would describe themselves as believers in small government.

And let's not resort to the No True Scotsman fallacy ...

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by conanbatt on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @11:20AM (#20402814)
Probably because it means they get federal money, not because they want to cut out the subsidies out of their own budget.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by teknopaul on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @07:30PM (#20397830)
Who paid the F35s 1.5 trillion?
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by PeterStuer on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @02:43AM (#20399659)
The people of the countries the US is strong arming into buying this failure
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by conanbatt on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @09:00PM (#20398305)
That's the military, not the airplane industry.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by imtringued on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @08:19PM (#20398114)
No one because it's not a lump sum. It's a projected cost over 50 years.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by ced on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @04:02PM (#20396000)
affordable air travel network is a capability the business world needs to operate our economy

Is it? Why? Frequent air travel is super recent.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by kumoflow on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @04:15PM (#20396117)
Internet is even more recent, does it make even less necessary to operate out economy?
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by cma on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @04:31PM (#20396262)
Not sure it's what you meant, but the internet does make air travel less necessary to operate the economy.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by kumoflow on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @04:38PM (#20396329)
I was making the point that just because something is 'recent' doesn't mean it isn't necessary and we can go without because 20-50-100 years ago it wasn't needed.

The world changes. I travel all over the world for business. Contracts that I couldn't do without that travel. Just because 50 years ago I wouldn't be able to do it, doesn't mean it isn't necessary now. (Same as internet, just because 50 years ago you didn't need, or have, the internet, doesn't mean nowadays is an integral part of business)

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by black_puppydog on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @04:15PM (#20396121)
well they need it to operate the economy in the way that it has been operated as of late. which is to say: maybe if we take that away from them, we could solve two problems at once? Pollution from air travel, and all the societal problems that a globalized economy without meaningfully global regulation brings?
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by sokoloff on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @04:52PM (#20396460)
If it’s the case that international air travel makes companies more competitive, all you’ll really be able to do is to further stratify the winners from the rest of the pack by sharply increasing the cost of air travel.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by dahfizz on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @08:09PM (#20398063)
The modern economy is "super recent". So are computers and solar cells. Just because something is new doesn't make it easily dispensable.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by adrianratnapala on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @09:30PM (#20398450)
> But a robust and affordable air travel network is a capability the business world needs to operate our economy.

Then the business world can pay for it through ticket prices.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by BurningFrog on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @08:43PM (#20398214)
This argument contradicts itself.

If air travel is essential to operate the economy itself, people will pay for it without subsidies, and cut down on non essentials, if need be.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by JAlexoid on Friday July 12, 2019 @12:44PM (#20422071)
Airliner manufacturing isn't low margin, by far. Airbus reported EBIT €5.8bn on €64bn revenues for 2018. 9% profitability is pretty good for durable goods company. Airlines aren't all exactly on paper thin margins. Southwest operates at about 15% margin

Apple, the posterchild of high margins, reported profits of $14bn on $62bn revenues for Q4 2018... that's 22%. If you want low margins, look at retailers.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by granshaw on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @04:32PM (#20396276)
Perhaps if air travel became cost-prohibitive more corporations would invest in remote workflows and cultures?
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by Iv on Tuesday July 09, 2019 @09:02PM (#20398316)
I don't know about businesses but I also think that international passengers travel is an important part of world peace. Being able to visit other countries and learn about different cultures really brings intolerance and nationalism down.

I wish it was mandatory for every student to visit two or three very different countries during their studies.

I understand the emissions are problematic and we need to cut them down. I like the idea of forbidding or de-incentivizing air travel on short trips when a rail alternative exists. I just wish we put that at the bottom of the priority list. Remove coal plants and fuel cars first.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by dingaling on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @12:19AM (#20399119)
> I wish it was mandatory for every student to visit two or three very different countries during their studies.

That was common in the 80s & 90s but we did it wearing a backpack and hopping on buses and coaches and sleeper trains; air travel was much too expensive back then.

That's in contrast to modern Ryanair-style stag-party 'tourism' where students descend on a city for a few days and then zip back home.

Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by Iv on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @02:33AM (#20399601)
Buses and backpack won't expose you to different culture. Esp, in a country as big as the US. Unless you live close to the southern border, you won't even be exposed to people speaking a different language, which is an important thing to experience.
Re:France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall by PeterStuer on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @02:50AM (#20399707)
We travel to get away from the hell holes we created locally, just to then turn those destinations into carbon copies of the places we were trying to escape from.